Is it time for a,pro group ?

Discussion in 'Video Cameras' started by Jerry., Nov 19, 2003.

  1. Jerry.

    Jerry. Guest

    ISTM that there are two apposing forces in this group, those who are happy
    to live with 'domestic' standards and those who either wish to or do work to
    a pro standard.

    Is it time to try and get a group for those latter people ?
    Jerry., Nov 19, 2003
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  2. Jerry.

    Bob Edwards Guest

    Off you go then!
    Bob Edwards, Nov 19, 2003
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  3. Jerry.

    Jerry. Guest

    No, off you go back to, seeing as I was one of the founder members
    of the group
    (voted for the creation of this group when the RFD was being discussed and
    the vote taken) ! :~P
    Jerry., Nov 19, 2003
  4. Jerry.

    AndyP Guest

    Jerry, no disrepect meant as I don't know anything about you or your level
    of video expertise, but I've just randomly looked at some of your recent
    posts, and you need to be aware that you do come over as a bit of a tit.
    AndyP, Nov 19, 2003
  5. Jerry.

    Tony Morgan Guest

    Not just recent posts. As long ago as 2001 he was posting remarks to
    people who had just joined in on the newsgroup, like:

    2001-08-26 14:24:26 PST
    Are you some kind of f*ckwit or just totally clueless ?

    2001-08-27 14:15:14 PST
    If you prefer I could always ask for your account to be cancelled if you
    You shouldn't nave bought that new camera anyway, you should have bought
    a clue, you would have then had at least one....

    In those days he was known as: J.L.E ()

    He periodically changes his address/name so even kill-filing him won't
    keep him invisible for any length of time.
    Tony Morgan, Nov 20, 2003
  6. Jerry.

    Jerry. Guest

    <snip trolling>

    And lets go off and do some digging (let's start looking at some web design
    groups...) on Mr Morgan...

    Here I am asking a reasonable question and here is Mr Morgan trolling me

    Oh well...

    Just face it Morgan, the reason you dislike me is because you now that I
    know you are a clueless *uckwit and I'm not worried about your bully-boy
    tactics, I'll grant you that you know plenty about computers but you know
    sod all about video and its production...
    Jerry., Nov 20, 2003
  7. Jerry.

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    It's not a proper newsgroup unless you've got a few arch enemies flaming
    each other. Damn good sport. :))


    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University
    Darcy O'Bree, Nov 20, 2003
  8. Jerry.

    SjT Guest

    I personally wouldnt like to see this happen as ive only just got my
    feet barely in the door of video work and i am still very interested
    to read about the Pro setups and ideas, despite not using them myself.
    SjT, Nov 20, 2003
  9. Jerry.

    Tony Morgan Guest

    There are other newsgroups more heavily biassed toward professional

    However, I would agree with you. I would suggest, though, that the vast
    majority who lurk and pose questions here are those who are stepping out
    on the video production trail for the first time (or at lest in the
    early stages).

    I suspect that a lot of "beginners" would easily be discouraged if
    things are made to appear complicated - and this is supported by many of
    the e-mails I receive. This is why I adopt the principle of KISS, both
    in my responses here and on my website.

    I should also add that at one time I offered to write and maintain a FAQ
    for this newsgroup, and while some were encouraging, others chose to
    object (IIRC Jerry (aka J.L.E) was one of the latter). As a result I
    created my website, which I often point to since it saves
    me much time in explaining things (especially as many questions are

    Since my website was created to make it easy to explain the basic
    principles and operations of video work, perhaps those with the
    extensive knowledge that some have (here claim to have), they might
    consider creating a website covering the more advanced

    I also think that there's a need for a newsgroup (or at least an
    associated website) which deals with the actual shooting/composition
    etc. I've searched the Web (for my own education/improvement) and found
    little there.

    The thing that I would like to emphasise, though, is that really good
    movies can be produced with very modest equipment and software.

    It does disturb me a little when some posters imply that you have to
    have "professional stuff" to produce good movies - which does little to
    encourage and nurture those who are pursuing video movie-making as a
    Tony Morgan, Nov 20, 2003
  10. Jerry.

    Tony Morgan Guest

    Really Jerry (aka J.l.E.), unlike you, I've never claimed to be an
    expert - you should perhaps read the entry page on Here, I'll help you:

    I am no expert - just an enthusiastic amateur.

    Unfortunately you consider yourself an "expert", but sadly you so very
    often show by your posts here that you are far from being one. You
    persistently post misleading and incorrect information - which - for the
    benefit of the many "starters" I feel bound to challenge.

    I'd also point out that if you feel that you have something constructive
    to contribute to the website I'd welcome it. Again I'll
    quote from the entry page:

    If you would like to contribute an article to this site it would be
    welcome and I would provide a credit to you.

    I should perhaps also add that what I say both here and on
    is based on my personal experience, the experience of a few friends who
    are heavily into video, as well a the content of some of the many
    e-mails I receive about various aspects. I do honestly believe,
    therefore, that what I do say is soundly based on an appreciable amount
    of experience and opinion.

    Unfortunately, for some unknown reason, you're main contribution to this
    newsgroup is to pursue a vendetta - and to belittle the considerable
    amount of time I've spent here and in the creation of

    If you were to spend a little more of your time in contributing more
    that was relevant, interesting, and not based on hearsay, and not either
    misleading or incorrect, then I'm sure that the many folk who value this
    newsgroup would appreciate your contributions and advice.

    Finally, you might like to take a good look at yourself. In the post to
    which I am replying, it's clear that you have made considerable effort
    is searching through archived newsgroups that have nothing to do with
    video to "score points" from me.

    Pursuing a vendetta as you persistently do here, does this newsgroup no
    good, and has the secondary effect of devaluing anything remotely
    constructive that you might have to say here.
    Tony Morgan, Nov 20, 2003
  11. Jerry.

    Bob Edwards Guest

    Here here - well said that man!! Surely on any NG such as this you need a
    mix of subscribers. If this one was only visited by novices/amateurs then
    who would be able to answer the difficult questions? We novices can benefit
    a great deal from the knowledge and experience of those in the know.

    I've been coming here for about 2 weeks and already I have benefited a great
    deal just by reading the posts. Long may it continue!

    Bob Edwards, Nov 20, 2003
  12. Jerry.

    Rob Davies Guest

    100% agreed!
    I'm pretty sure I've said this recently here (or there?), but some of you
    may remember The David Bailey Challenge (OWTTE). It was the subject of a TV
    prog in UK; Many Amateur Photographers get the idea that Pro's "can't go
    wrong - what with all that expensive equipment and shooting *millions* of
    shots - One of them *must* be good!"
    Enter the challenge: DB has the use of a cheapo selection of equipment
    (either the Amateur Guy's own stuff or maybe even a really cheap & nasty
    plastic Taiwan -Special device, anyone remember?)
    OK, so the Guy who represents the typical Amateur viewpoint gets to use
    *anything* from DB's kit - including his assistant and the knowledge &
    experience *he* brings along! They shoot under 3 different categories (Say,
    a Landscape; a Portrait and a Still - Life). You can guess the ending before
    it happens - but I like the way they did it - they never judged the stuff
    produced, they let you see the Pics and decide for yourself as the end -
    credits came up. QED.
    What I'm saying is all the equipment in the world is no substitute for
    skill, experience and individual creativity. A turning point for me during
    my transition from Still to Vid was when I saw a true Pro CG designer who
    worked for an advertising agency turn a couple of my (in my own opinion)
    pretty average vid clips into a really snazzy mock - up for a TV advert.
    This was during a visit with some students to the agency - the Guy literally
    took the mini DV tape from my camera and 20 mins later we had something
    really cool playing on a huge great monitor with me taking some of the
    credit cuz it was *my* footage! :)

    Rob Davies, Nov 20, 2003
  13. Jerry.

    Jerry. Guest


    It is you who is the troll around here, seeing that you told everyone that I
    was in your (over worked no doubt) kill file, or are you just a worthless
    liar ?...

    Mr Morgan, you should also consider what you have said in this thread so
    fare and what the thread subject is about before you throw any more trolling
    tantrums or stones...
    Jerry., Nov 20, 2003
  14. Jerry.

    Jerry. Guest

    Wrong, there is no uk*group, other than one that is more inclined towards
    transmission or broadcast studio based work etc.
    Oh, yes the 'Keeping It Stupefyingly Simple' approach.
    I was against you having it on _your_ site / server and you deciding what
    should be in the FAQ. You could always have offered the space to another
    group poster or posters (and I'm not suggesting myself). As A matter of fact
    you are not the first person to offer an FAQ for this group, nothing came of
    those offers either - most people just come by this group, ask a question
    and that go on their way.

    The reason for starting this thread is because you were (and are) trying to
    high-jack this group and keep it KISS, hence why I have suggested the
    possibility (after a comment made by Malcolm) that another group is formed.
    There is a void between broadcast video and domestic video, people working
    or wishing to work within 'corporate' and semi pro video are not really
    served by the broadcast group and don't seem to be welcome by people like Mr
    Morgan in this group.

    I have asked a simple question that any other poster could have, if Darcy or
    Malcolm had ask it I doubt people like Mr Morgan would have entered into the
    diatribe he has in my direction...
    Jerry., Nov 20, 2003
  15. Jerry.

    Jerry. Guest

    Ask about why cameras are better held on the shoulder rather than in the
    palm, or why one should always use manual focus and see the remarks made by
    people like Mr Morgan, or you could do a Google on the subject !

    I don't see any / need / for a split, BUT, if the two can't co-exist...
    Jerry., Nov 20, 2003
  16. Jerry.

    Jerry. Guest

    No one has ever doubted that, but can you really say that DV is equal to
    DigiBeta, auto gain is as good as manual (operator controlled), auto focus
    equal to manual focus etc. ?

    The point is that there are people who either need to [1] (or prefer to) use
    'pro' equipment but are not working in the broadcast trades. This group does
    not seem welcoming to them and that perhaps there should be a uk* based
    Usenet group for them.

    [1] did anyone see that program on BBC2 last Sunday (?) with the bloke
    trying to track down M Jackson, he almost had to prove his credentials to
    Joe Jackson's agent due to the small DV camera (PD150 ?) they were using.

    A turning point for me during
    A Pro using armature gear is different to an armature with armature gear, an
    armature using pro gear (and knowing how to use it) is different yet again !
    Jerry., Nov 20, 2003
  17. Jerry.

    Jerry. Guest

    Louis Theroux
    Jerry., Nov 21, 2003
  18. Jerry.

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    I had a laugh at that one too but did you notice how good the low light
    shots were? That's why they chose a PD150. I would have done the same.


    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University
    Darcy O'Bree, Nov 21, 2003
  19. Jerry.

    Rob Davies Guest

    Well, I can *say* it - but that won't make it true.

    I use some items of "Pro" equipment - I would use more if (a) I could
    justify the cost (b) it wasn't so damn heavy (no use in my situation).
    I make a fair amount of income from my Video productions, but as it isn't my
    main source of income I don't class myself as "Pro" in this field (maybe
    I haven't really noticed such a Great Divide here - not at least in terms of
    who's welcome anyway.
    I thought an Armature Gear was something found in an electric motor!?

    Sorry, couldn't resist. I think ISWYM. But my point was (and I ain't
    changing it just yet), even with amateur gear some very good stuff can be
    produced - If I went crazy with my credit card for the next week or two -
    the only thing it would do for *my* Productions is (a) Bollox up the profits
    (b) Set me back a bit while I get to learn the new stuff (all my present
    gear is used at the "instinctive" level) (c) Open up the market for my
    finished material to include the likes of many TV companies, etc. Who
    presently wouldn't be interested unless I manage to film myself falling down
    a mountain or getting bitten by a venomous snake - for example. The latter
    being true because it's DV.

    BTW I read somewhere recently about a Guy who slipped some stuff he'd shot
    on mini DV in with the rest of his "Pro" material to a TV company who have a
    "no DV" rule. He'd obviously edited it first - they used the lot without

    Rob Davies, Nov 21, 2003
  20. Jerry.

    Jerry. Guest

    There was a good editorial in a past copy of DV magazine, the writer was
    saying how well a shoot at a large event / convention went and that because
    he had used his shoulder mount camera he was able to get a lot nearer to the
    action and also get some un pre-arranged interviews purely on the strength
    of 'looking a pro' but he then missed other parts of the days event because
    he face lugging the heavy gear across town...

    Given Louis Theroux's normal interviews / locations etc. I would agree but,
    as noted above, sometimes 'looking the part' (even though you are the part
    !) can get you places were you might not have otherwise got. There is a
    place for both IYSWIM.
    Jerry., Nov 21, 2003
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