K-14 Oopsies! (yeah, you know in BW chemistry)

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Some Dude, Nov 24, 2004.

  1. Some Dude

    Some Dude Guest

    Hi-

    I have a question regarding some "fun" with developing K14process
    (KP40) in regular BW chemistry. I did an 8 hour development (hey,
    why not?) in 1/2 tsp rodinal with 1/2 tsp sodium sulfite.

    Once washed, etc I took the film out of the spool and the emulsion
    proceeded to run like water down the strip.

    I know, of course, this isn't the right thing to do but..Out of
    curiosity, how come the emulsion turned to mush?

    Thanks!

    Cheers,
    -sd
    http://www.zoom.sh
     
    Some Dude, Nov 24, 2004
    #1
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  2. Are you sure this was the emulsion? Kodachrome has a
    type of anti-halation backing known as Remjet, it also used
    on some motion picture films. In normal processing its blown
    off the back of the film with a water spray. When small
    quantities of film are processed it must be removed by
    soaking the film in a carbonate solution and then wiping it
    off. Rodinal is quite alkaline so I think what you are
    seeing is the Remjet coming off. Try soaking the film in
    water for a few minutes and swabbing with cotton balls, you
    may be able to get this stuff off.
    Kodachrome should develop to a black and white negative
    image with a yellow cast due to the yellow filter layer
    which will remain. The filter is made of extremely finely
    devided silver (colloidal silver) and is normally removed
    with the silver images during the bleaching step. You might
    be able to remove it without damaging the image by using the
    bleach Kodak recommends for removing dichroic fog, which is
    also composed of colloidal silver. This consistes of fresh
    film strength rapid fixer with 15 grams per liter of Citric
    acid added. Bleach it in this but watch it carefully for
    reduction of the image. The treatment can be repeated. After
    the bleaching treat the film in Kodak wash aid and wash as
    directed.
    You can print from the negatives without removing the
    filter but you will have to use panchromatic paper such as
    Kodak Panalure Select because the yellow filter will remove
    most of the blue light B&W papers are sensitive to. Its
    possible it may print on variable contrast paper but
    probably with very low contrast due to the green light
    exposure.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Nov 24, 2004
    #2
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  3. sd,

    Glad you had some fun (that's what it is all about!) but here is your
    problem...

    Imagine you bought some nice crispy freshly cooked french fries. Now
    place them in water for eight hours, and see if they have turned to
    mush...!

    Photographic emulsion is organic gelatin, basically, and
    expands/swells on contact with water, but in this form does not
    dissolve - perfect for film. In prolonged contact with liquid, the
    emulsion will swell too much, and may strip from the film. Age causes
    emulsion to be more susceptible to this - never clean a 1920's neg in
    water !

    You can indeed develop new K-14 in B/W dev, just try 15min @ 20degrees
    C with D-76. Comes out quite well, but high contrast. You will get a
    very yellow/magenta base which is the yellow filter, this can be
    carefully bleached with dilute farmers reducer or similar. You will
    need to wipe and rinse off the remjet backing with a clean damp cloth
    and running water.

    Experiment!

    Dominic Roberts, Process C-22
    http://www.processc22.co.uk
     
    'Process C-22', Nov 24, 2004
    #3
  4. Some Dude

    Some Dude Guest

    Cheers Dominic,

    Actually I do a LOT of extended development. Its not uncommon for me
    to do 24 hour development using bw film with <10ml of rodinal in a
    300ml tank with (what I consider) great results.

    I think what Richard said it very likely the answer, actually. Upon
    further inspection of the KP40 "negatives" I can clearly see that the
    base side of the film is smeared but the emulsion side has clear frame
    spacing marks on it. The image is so dark that you cannot even pass
    light through it with a light table. With a 2 million candlepower
    spot beam, however, I can clearly see that there is a latent image
    there just waiting to get out.

    So, in his description about bleaching the film it would make sense
    that it would bring the image out. So I shall snip off a section and
    try it out and report back!

    Thanks for the response.




    Cheers,
    -sd
    http://www.zoom.sh
     
    Some Dude, Nov 24, 2004
    #4
  5. I would try to get the Remjet off first. Swabbing the
    back of the film with stock Dektol should work. Rinse it for
    a few minutes afterward. If the image is really that dark
    its probably much overdeveloped. This will take a much
    stronger reducer than the fixer with citric acid to deal
    with. There are many reducer formulas but Farmer's is
    probably the safest one to try first. I am not sure Kodak
    still puts it up in packets, if so that's the easiest way to
    obtain it. For overdeveloped negatives the two parts of
    Farmer's are used separately. This tends to reduce the more
    dense areas faster than the less dense so reduced contrast.
    When the bleach and hypo are combined it tends to reduce all
    densities about equally which is more suitable for
    overexposed negatives. After using either form the film
    should be refixed in regular fixer and washed.
    There are other effecgive reducers. I will post formulas
    for some if desired, but, AFAIK, Kodak Farmer's Reducer is
    the only one currently available packaged. BTW, this reducer
    should also remove the yellow filter layer.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Nov 24, 2004
    #5
  6. Some Dude

    Some Dude Guest

    I tried the previous recipe you recommended and I've had the film in
    the solution for many hours now and I don't see any bleaching. Still
    opaque as you could imagine :)

    Is it too late after the film has dried?

    I don't use a hardening fixer...


    Thanks Richard...

    Cheers,
    -sd
    http://www.zoom.sh
     
    Some Dude, Nov 25, 2004
    #6
  7. If you mean the Remjet, I'm not sure but don't think it
    matters. It _should_ come off in a mildly alkaline solution
    with a little help by swabbing.
    If you mean the silver image it should make no difference
    whatever. Farmer's should work in a few minutes. In fact, it
    doesn't last very long once mixed.
    I am not sure I understood right what you have. I read it
    that the film is very opaque but has clear areas between
    frames but has some smudged material on the back, is that
    correct? I am guessing the smudged material is residual
    Remjet. The film _should_ also still have the yellow filter
    layer so the clear areas should show at least some yellowish
    coloring. It is _possible_ this was bleached by the fixing
    bath if you used an acid _rapid_ fixer. Non-hardining fixing
    baths can still be acid. Did you use a packaged fixer, if so
    what kind? If mixed from a formula does it call for any sort
    of acid? Acid rapid fixing baths have some bleaching
    property for metallic silver. When neutral or alkaline they
    do not bleach. Sodium thiosulfate fixing baths can also
    cause some image bleaching but it takes them hours.
    Can you try scratching away some of whatever is on the
    film? Just a small area to tell which side its on. This is
    very puzzling. Developing Kodachrome to a B&W negative has
    been done often where the film was of an older type than can
    be currently processed. Usually, the development is done in
    D-76. I don't remember the suggested times but there is some
    info on the web. Try Google to find this.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Nov 25, 2004
    #7
  8. I have done this a lot. If the RemJet has dried, it takes a lot more
    time soaking in the removal bath: Dektol, Carbonate or reused D-76.
    The biggest problem is when some of the Remjet has dried on the
    emulsion side and might be slightly embedded in the upper layer of the
    film. This needs a lot of soaking and gentle swabbing. You have to
    look closely to determine if it is finally removed, after first
    removing the black stuff from the base; mainly to be able to see the
    specks still on the emulsion side.

    If you're going to do this again, really rub all the RemJet from both
    sides of the film when it is in the stop bath. I used my fingers at
    that point, and it always worked well.

    Reducer advice is well put. One caveat is to be careful of overuse of
    mived Farmer's, as the fine detail in the shadows can bleach out very
    quickly. This is one reason single Solution Farmer's is able to give
    an increase in contrast. I tisn't so much that it attacks shadows
    sooner, but rather that there is usually so much more Silver in
    highlights that the effect of reduction is not seen as soon. Best to
    use two solution Farmer's first, to get some of the dnse areas near to
    where you want them, then finish in short repeated immersions in a
    weak single solutio, while inspecting the results. Try to stop
    reduction before everything gets to the point that it looks right in
    the reducing bath, as there are isues with the effect of dry down and
    cessation of reducing action after removal from the solution. You can
    very easily over-reduce.


    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Nov 25, 2004
    #8
  9. Some Dude

    Some Dude Guest

    This seems to make sense. When I pulled the film out of the tank
    (post-wash) the remjet, as I now know it, was drippinng to the floor
    in a black muck. It also appears to have stained parts of the plastic
    film reel (presumably from sitting there 8 hours).

    I see parts of the remjet dried on the emulsion side. I had assumed,
    perhaps incorrectly that this meant the frame was gone..But no? I'd
    love to restore some or all of these to something visible or scannable
    with a negative scanner.

    Robert thanks for the advice. I will follow your stop-bath advice on
    the next roll. I guess I find it weird that the remjet will drip off
    the film after a 20m wash yet it won't come off until there's a little
    gravity......It needs a little coaxing, no?



    Cheers,
    -sd
    http://www.zoom.sh
     
    Some Dude, Nov 25, 2004
    #9
  10. Some Dude

    Some Dude Guest

    Richard to answer your question I am using Sprint speed fixer. I
    believe 1:9

    Cheers,
    -sd
    http://www.zoom.sh
     
    Some Dude, Nov 25, 2004
    #10
  11. Yes it does.

    Thanks for the thanks.

    Just keep in mind that the RemJet is only a problem when it is used in
    a macine processor or when it isn't removed in the wet stage of hand
    processing, before the wash. When it dries, its a real PITA.

    Good luck, Dude. I love your various experiments.

    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Nov 25, 2004
    #11
  12. Some Dude

    Some Dude Guest

    Remjet gone- the hard way:

    After feeling that this Remjet was really pissing me off I left an
    entire roll of bw processed K14 film in Blank's solution (Farmers?)-
    15mg ascorbic acid with 1:9 dilution of fixer (non-hardening). If I
    had Dektol handy I would have used that instead but anyway..

    I pulled the film out last night and took some lint-free thick lens
    wipes and sure enough I was removing the remjet. It was stuck on
    there good and took many washes and tugging on the film to get that
    crap off the base. The image is visible now through the negative and
    I intend to do a contact print tonight.

    Thanks Richard, et al..!

    p.s. does Hydroquinone have any uses that would allow it to be
    purchased in pure form in local stores? Google says its good for the
    skin but I'm sure if I go to a store its going to be mixed with
    something else to make a cream/whatever.

    Finally, does anyone know what pure Vitamin E does to development?

    Thanks!


    Cheers,
    -sd
    http://www.zoom.sh
     
    Some Dude, Nov 26, 2004
    #12
  13. Hydroquinone has uses in industry in the dying of furs
    and other areas. It should be available from dealers in
    photographic chemicals although there are not many of them.
    AFAIK Vitamin E has no photographic use. Also, be
    careful of the cult use of Vitamin E, it is toxic in large
    doses and some of the less sensible recommendations are for
    near toxic doses. Actual research on mega-dose vitamin
    intake shows it to be useless.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Nov 27, 2004
    #13
  14. Got to be careful, there, Richard. Just about all the research
    showing any negative effect from Vitamin E, as well as studies
    negating other food components, are done with extracts, components and
    synthetic versions of these substances. Most of the time such
    gimmickry will not produce a result up to the standards of the whole
    substance. Drug companies routinely bury research that doesn't allow
    them to find a patentable derivative.

    The recent Vitamin E scare was an especially egregious form of
    misinformation. The sample was distorted, the results culled from
    almost ancient studies and the methodologies were flawed in the same
    ways as I mentioned, above; synthetic forms of the Vitamin that had
    vastly differing biological effects.

    That said, I have to agree that Vitamin E has no use in Photochemistry
    for the Darkroom. It might be uswed in emulsion making, though, as I
    once heard Agfa was stumped by the failure of a Cashew crop whose oil
    was unsuitable for their version of a Magenta layer in one of their
    reversal color products.

    Go figure.


    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Nov 28, 2004
    #14
  15. Some Dude

    Travis Porco Guest

    What overall procedure did you settle on for developing Kodachrome in black
    and white chemistry (including removing or bleaching)?

    --travis
     
    Travis Porco, Nov 29, 2004
    #15
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