Killing Batteries

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Dudley Hanks, Feb 13, 2014.

  1. Dudley Hanks

    Dudley Hanks Guest

     
    Dudley Hanks, Feb 17, 2014
    #81
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  2. Dudley Hanks

    Dudley Hanks Guest

    I don't have time just now to slog through the rest of this thread, but has

    I've observed cold weather failure of both rechargeable and
    non-rechargeable batteries. The rechargeable lithium-ion
    battery that dies in cold weather powers a small HP portable
    computerized GPS, and it's been notoriously unreliable in
    temps below about -20C. The non-rechargeable that dies powers
    my old Canon A2.

    As for the rechargeable lithium-ion in the HP, it doesn't have
    a separate charger, but is charged in the device. As long as
    I use it in warm temps, I have no problems charging it, and it
    runs all day on a charge. But, if I zip out for a day in cold
    weather, guaranteed it will bite the bullet.

    Take Care,
    Dudley
     
    Dudley Hanks, Feb 17, 2014
    #82
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  3. Dudley Hanks

    Robert Coe Guest

    : In article <>, Robert Coe
    :
    : > I don't have time just now to slog through the rest of this thread, but has
    : > anybody asked whether the problem could be with your battery charger, rather
    : > than with the battery?
    :
    : they're non-rechargeable batteries.

    Well, that's a new one on me. I've never heard of a non-rechargeable lithium
    battery.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Feb 17, 2014
    #83
  4. Dudley Hanks

    J. Clarke Guest

    Commonplace. Typical watch batteries for example are nonrechargeable
    lithium and have been ever since mercury became politically incorrect.
     
    J. Clarke, Feb 17, 2014
    #84
  5. Dudley Hanks

    Guest Guest

    Guest, Feb 17, 2014
    #85
  6. Dudley Hanks

    Savageduck Guest

    I've been using Surefire non-rechargeable lithium batteries for years
    (since 1994 anyway) in my Surefire flashlights. They are a Law
    Enforcement favorite.
    < http://www.surefire.com/batteries.html >
     
    Savageduck, Feb 17, 2014
    #86
  7. Dudley Hanks

    Savageduck Guest

    ....and more Surefire uses their proprietary 3V SF123A for their
    flashlights, laser sights and other stuff.
     
    Savageduck, Feb 17, 2014
    #87
  8. Dudley Hanks

    Nab Guest

    Do the batteries die in the cold if they are *NOT* in the
    devices?

    NAB
     
    Nab, Feb 17, 2014
    #88
  9. Dudley Hanks

    Dudley Hanks Guest


    Good point ...

    I haven't checked that out. As much as I hate to put that $
    100 HP battery outside for a couple of hours, that might be
    the best next step to take ...

    Thanks for that slant.

    Take Care,
    Dudley
     
    Dudley Hanks, Feb 17, 2014
    #89
  10. Dudley Hanks

    Robert Coe Guest

    >In article <>,
    : > says...
    : >>
    : >> >In article <>, J. Clarke
    : >> >
    : >> >> Remember that with a lithium battery, once the voltage goes below a
    : >> >> certain level, a protective circuit kicks in that prevents the battery
    : >> >> from being charged, effectively disabling the battery.
    : >> >
    : >> >no. the protective circuit kicks in so that it *won't* get to that
    : >> >point. that's why it's called a protective circuit.
    : >
    : >Nospam is wrong as usual. The protective circuit disables the battery
    : >from being charged because once a lithium battery discharges below a
    : >certain point there is a fair chance that it will catch fire or explode
    : >on charging (I don't mean "leak", I mean a big enough bang to bring down
    : >an airplane).
    : >
    : >> >however, if the protective circuit kicks in and the user neglects to
    : >> >recharge it, the battery will continue to self-discharge to the point
    : >> >where it can no longer be charged, and then the battery is disabled.
    : >
    : >> Ahhh, now we're getting somewhere...
    : >>
    : >> I wasn't aware that the user should charge a battery within a
    : >> short time of exposure to cold temps. So, it's not the temps
    : >> that killed the HP batteries; rather, it was my taking too
    : >> much time to put it on a charger...
    : >>
    : >> Does that sound right?
    : >
    : >No, it's letting the voltage get low enough to trigger the protective
    : >circuit, which happens a lot faster if the battery is cold.
    : >
    : >There is another issue with lithium ion batteries. If their temperature
    : >is cold enough, attempting a charge will destroy the battery--the
    : >protective circuit may have additional features to prevent charging at
    : >extreme low temperatures.
    : >
    : >You might want to read the wikipedia entry for "lithium-ion battery"
    : >which has a lot of good information.
    : >
    : >
    :
    :
    : Thanks for the info. I'll give it a read.
    :
    : Given I'm more interested in capturing images than charging
    : batteries, I've never worried about anything other than
    : battery basics. But, with the problems I've had with this HP,
    : and the replacement cost, I thought it a good idea to get a
    : handle on this issue, especially since the ST-E2 uses a type
    : of battery I've had problems with in the past.
    :
    :
    : Your comment about the Li being able to bring down a plane
    : remind me of what the guy at Battery World said when I took a
    : couple of the HP batteries in for him to look at. He said he
    : had a charger that could probably bring it back to life, but
    : he didn't want to chance it since the battery polarity wasn't
    : clearly indicated. And, if he hooked it up incorrectly, it
    : would go off like a bomb.
    :
    : I thought he was joking. But, maybe he wasn't ...

    It surprises me that a battery without its polarity clearly indicated could be
    sold for use in Canada.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Feb 17, 2014
    #90
  11. Dudley Hanks

    Guest Guest

    since lithium ion batteries only work in the devices for which they
    were designed and have dedicated chargers, there's no need to mark the
    polarity. they can't be connected in reverse, in either the device or
    the charger.

    look at some lithium ion batteries. it's very likely there are no
    polarity markings at all and there is almost certainly more than two
    contacts anyway, sometimes 5 or 6.

    charging lithium ion batteries can be extremely dangerous if you don't
    use the proper charger, especially if you just hook it up to a power
    source. that would be *really* bad.
     
    Guest, Feb 17, 2014
    #91
  12. Dudley Hanks

    Robert Coe Guest

    : In article <>, Robert Coe
    :
    : > : Your comment about the Li being able to bring down a plane
    : > : remind me of what the guy at Battery World said when I took a
    : > : couple of the HP batteries in for him to look at. He said he
    : > : had a charger that could probably bring it back to life, but
    : > : he didn't want to chance it since the battery polarity wasn't
    : > : clearly indicated. And, if he hooked it up incorrectly, it
    : > : would go off like a bomb.
    : > :
    : > : I thought he was joking. But, maybe he wasn't ...
    : >
    : > It surprises me that a battery without its polarity clearly indicated
    : > could be sold for use in Canada.
    :
    : since lithium ion batteries only work in the devices for which they
    : were designed and have dedicated chargers, there's no need to mark the
    : polarity. they can't be connected in reverse, in either the device or
    : the charger.
    :
    : look at some lithium ion batteries. it's very likely there are no
    : polarity markings at all

    Aw, c'mon, NS, you don't think I would have written that without looking at at
    least one. Two contacts on the batteries for my Canon 7D's do indeed have
    their polarity indicated.

    : and there is almost certainly more than two contacts anyway,
    : sometimes 5 or 6.

    There will be a + and - input from the charger; those are probably the ones
    with their polarity indicated. The others are presumably a ground and one or
    more output voltages for components of the camera. If there are fewer than
    four contacts, it's a good bet that the input and output share a common
    ground.

    : charging lithium ion batteries can be extremely dangerous if you don't
    : use the proper charger, especially if you just hook it up to a power
    : source. that would be *really* bad.

    I guess you mean "hook it up to an unspecified power source". The charger *is*
    a power source, of course.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Feb 20, 2014
    #92
  13. Dudley Hanks

    Guest Guest

    i didn't say all lithium ion batteries. i said some of them.

    if a battery can only be inserted one way, then there is no need to
    mark anything, since there is no way to get it wrong.

    for instance, look at the battery for an apple macbook and you will see
    not two, not three, but *eight* contacts, all of them unlabeled.
    <http://www.bobgoyetche.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/battery_compare.J
    PG>
    <http://www.wexphotographic.com/webcontent/product_images/large/10/10289
    27.jpg>

    now tell me which one is + and which one is -. if you get it wrong,
    kaboom.
    one or more of the contacts is to talk to the cpu inside the battery
    pack so that the charger and the camera knows what the status of the
    battery is and when to stop charging. otherwise, kaboom.
    the original post was referring to a generic charger, not a dedicated
    charger.

    the correct charger has contacts in fixed positions and the battery
    only goes in one way, so you *can't* connect it wrong. it's also
    designed for that battery and knows when to shut off.

    if you use a generic charger, then there is a strong possibility that
    you can connect it wrong or more likely, the charger will continue to
    charge even when the battery is full, which means there is an extremely
    high likelihood that it will go kaboom. not a good thing.
     
    Guest, Feb 20, 2014
    #93
  14. Dudley Hanks

    Dudley Hanks Guest


    If my memory is correct, the HP battery has 5 contacts,
    apparently unlabelled.

    My impression of the charger is that it is some sort of
    generic, industrial charger which a techie at a place like "
    Battery World" would use to service a wide variety of power
    packs / batteries.
     
    Dudley Hanks, Feb 20, 2014
    #94
  15. Dudley Hanks

    Guest Guest

    that's not surprising.

    and even if it is labeled, the other contacts are likely needed for
    proper charging. they aren't there for decoration.
    there are 'universal' lithium ion chargers that know about common
    lithium ion batteries which will probably work with relatively low
    risk. however, they are not likely to resurrect a dead battery.

    when you said he had a charger to bring it back to life, that suggests
    it's *not* a charger that was originally designed for the battery,
    which is a really bad idea, even if he knew the proper polarity.
     
    Guest, Feb 20, 2014
    #95
  16. Dudley Hanks

    Ringo Guest


    The more I hear about these batteries, the more interesting I
    find them...
     
    Ringo, Feb 20, 2014
    #96
  17. Dudley Hanks

    Whisky-dave Guest

    You obviously never worked with students ;-)

    I know what you mean though but it's not always true as with most things.
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LITELONG-...thium-ion-Li-ion-Battery-650mAh-/151074664966

    Most electronics have built in protection but not everything, I've seen capacitors explode (well seen the 'smoke' and heard the bang) when the supply rails are reversed.


    Yes battreies are made uo of muitiple cells I think the contacts are for differnt cells and I believe cells are monitored individually fpro both optium usage and charging.

    well not directly to the CPU but to the battery charging circiut the CPU doesn;t need to know the state of the battery as such.
     
    Whisky-dave, Feb 20, 2014
    #97
  18. Dudley Hanks

    Guest Guest

    all lithium batteries have protection circuitry, otherwise, kaboom.

    however, the quality varies. noname chinese batteries might not have
    the same level of protection as a name brand battery and may leak,
    swell or explode more often.
    yes directly to the cpu.

    there is a cpu in the battery pack, and some of those contacts go
    directly to it.

    there is also power manager circuitry in the computer (another cpu)
    that's always on which talks to the battery and manages the charging
    and sleep/wake, etc.
     
    Guest, Feb 20, 2014
    #98
  19. Dudley Hanks

    Ringo Guest

    Is this why those laptop batteries caught fire a few years
    back? Can't remember the brand. Maybe Dell or Sony.
     
    Ringo, Feb 20, 2014
    #99
  20. Dudley Hanks

    Whisky-dave Guest

    Your an expert on lithium batteries are you....

    Where the protection in thes which I buy.
    http://www.buildyourowndrone.co.uk/3S-LiPo-Battery-6200-mAh-35C-p/3s-lipo-6200-mah-35c.htm

    Thes cells are matched spo they don;t need the dedicated CPUs and most aren't actualy CPUs anyway, they are just dedicated circuits.


    Yep, same goes for all battries .

    NO, there's no need for the computers CPU to know the chargingn state of the batteries all that is concerned with is whether or not there's enough.

    I ahver brought 5 of these chargers NOT a CPU in site.

    http://proto-pic.co.uk/lipo-charger-basic-mini-usb/

    No they have a charging circuit for balancing the cells this IS NOT a Central Processing Unit as in the computer sense of the word.


    No it doesn't talk to the battery what uter rubbish.
     
    Whisky-dave, Feb 21, 2014
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