Kodak rapid selenium capacity

Discussion in 'Kodak' started by Fred, Jan 31, 2004.

  1. Fred

    Fred Guest

    What is the useful capacity of Kodak rapid selenium toner? The label
    indicates at least 100 8x10 per gallon diluted 1:3.

    I've been using a 1:20 dilution. Is the logic such that the quart
    mixed with 20 quarts to make 5.25 gallons 1:20 would still do only
    about 100 8x10 prints.

    Seems this is expensive stuff to use. My quart cost $23.79 usa.
    Thats 24 cents for each 8x10.

    Fred, Jan 31, 2004
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  2. Fred

    Mark A Guest

    Depends on how much color shift you want. For a slight color shift to
    neutral, it may last longer. Also, I think you paid too much, although it
    may be hard to get the stuff mail order these days with hazmat shipping
    Mark A, Jan 31, 2004
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  3. Kodak's statement is a bit vague. Presumably the capacity of other
    dilutions is proportional to the amount of toner concentrate in them.
    So, if one gallon of toner diluted 1:20 will do 100 prints a gallon of
    toner diluted 1:20 should be good for 15 prints. Of course this is
    very approximate since the amount of toner taken up depends on how
    much dark area there is in the print and how darkly its toned. In
    practice one can use the toner until it begins to take too long to
    tone or won't tone enough.
    When the toner is diluted in water its life is quite long, probably
    several months. Diluting it in wash aid was recommended only for high
    dilutions, 1:20 or more, when using it as a combined wash aid and
    protective toner. The working solution wash aid has a life of several
    hours in a tray. Since the capacity of the toner is very limited at
    high dilutions it was intended to be an expendible.
    Selenium toner somtimes developes a black, thread like precipitate.
    This may be elemental Selenium coming out of solution. If the toner
    continues to tone the precipitate does no harm. You can filter it out
    if desired.
    KRST at 1:20 is no longer recommended as a universal protective
    toner. There is a great deal about this in the archives of this list,
    do a search under my name to find much more. At 1:9 it is satisfactory
    for protective toning. If an image is toned enough to make a definite
    change in color or density it will be be toned enough to protect the

    Richard Knoppow
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Richard Knoppow, Jan 31, 2004
  4. Fred

    Fred Guest

    I'm using Ilford Multigrade IV Deluxe MGD.1M paper and the selenium
    toner seems to subtely darken the shadows slightly making my photo's
    pleasantly more crisp. Often I can see no effect in the bath unless I
    compare the toned print with an untoned print. I guess I could
    experiment, but the effect is so subtle, I feel like the experiment
    would be very subjective

    If my toner capacity calculations are correct my small 11 oz bath of
    1:10 mix with one oz of toner would tone less than one print of 8x10
    size (100 prints per gallon divided by 128 oz per gallon= 0.8 print at
    1:3 dilution as per Kodak label). If I assume the capacity of the 1
    oz is not changed by dilution, my quart of toner stock should do about
    25 prints, whether diluted 1:3 or 1:10. This doesn't seem like very
    much capacity. If what I'm stating here is true, I will be a little
    more selective which of my photo's I tone. Does anyone else have
    experience that contradicts this?
    I'm ok with the life as I throw out the apparantly depleted bath when
    done anyway.
    I am using the selenium toner for protection so I will back the
    dilution off to 1:9.

    Thanks for your response.

    I searched through the archives on selenium. But, I could not find
    anyone commenting about the number of prints they were successfully
    toning in any one bath.
    Fred, Jan 31, 2004
  5. Fred

    Tom Phillips Guest

    The general recommendation for film and paper is to tone for a minimum
    of 3 minutes at 1:9 or less dilution. Kodak's long recommended dilution
    of 1:20 isn't thought to be effective for low density areas of a print.
    Selenium split tones, toning higher density areas (shadows) first. To
    get complete image protection it's recommended to tone to full
    completion, which might produce unwanted color intensity in some papers.
    If you want a paper that tones and intensifies shadows but still remains
    a neutral image color, try Ilford Gallerie (graded) FB paper. Selenium
    changes it from a greenish to a neitral tone and you can tone as long as
    you want without unwanted color changes.

    Gravitational pull? Your joking, right? More likely has only to do with
    density of the silver.
    Buy a gallon. The cost per quart will drop 20 - 25%. Go to
    www.freestylephoto.biz and do a search for rapid selenium toner.
    Tom Phillips, Jan 31, 2004
  6. Fred

    Dan Quinn Guest

    RE: (Fred) wrote
    Is that the only reason you are using KRST? You're not interested
    in the archival properties it can confer? A just perceptable, subtel
    darkening in the shadows will not confer archival properties. That
    amount will not protect the most vunerable highlight areas.
    At least that is the conventional wisdom. To read quickly an
    explanation of the preferential toning behavior of selenium, one
    might think thin areas of silver are immune. Perhaps the dense areas
    exert some sort of gravitational pull and hoard the selenium untill
    they've had their fill.
    Silver-gelatine with no after treatment can last generations,
    even a century or more in good condition. I think there are quite a
    few who do tone but not for it's lengthening the life span
    of the print.
    BTW, have you considered dilution and carry out of the solution
    when costing that KRST? Dan
    Dan Quinn, Jan 31, 2004
  7. Fred

    Fred Guest

    Acutally that's the reason I started using selenium.

    It turns out I like the effect of selenium toner on Ilford MCIV paper.
    Eventhough its subtle, the darkening of the shadow areas seems to me
    to give the print a crispness not ususlly seen from my 35mm negatives.
    Are you saying that the archive effect of the toner is proportional to
    the toning effect?
    I like the idea that the selenium toner serves to protect the print
    from oxidizing gases. The implication is that the protection covers
    the whole spectrum of silver density on the print even though the
    selenium only the increase the shadow densities in prints with little
    or no change in the image tone.
    I just divided the suggested number of prints capacity by the cost.
    I've never used selenium toner untill last week. I guess if I want
    more toning effect from selenum, I'll try a warmer tone paper.
    Fred, Jan 31, 2004
  8. Fred

    Fred Guest

    I'll do that too.
    Fred, Feb 1, 2004
  9. Fred

    Dan Quinn Guest

    RE: (Fred) wrote
    Any addition of selenium will extend a silver images already long
    lifespan. I doubt any disagreement of that.
    I believe that implication correct, but for some reason though, tests
    have showen that the highlight areas are still vunerable. Keep in
    mind we have to start a very long lasting base silver image.

    Nelson's Gold Toner may be your ticket. It is a sulfide plus Gold
    toner. I've read that it can be used at room temperature although more
    usually at 100-110 F. Ready-Mix can be bought from Photographer's
    Formulary. Cost per print is a small fraction of KRST. For more
    Info search this NG for, nelson's gold .
    I compound all my own chemistry. I've all the chemicals for Nelson's
    but have yet to mix the toner. I'm wraped up in refining my print
    developer test methods and testing some new formulas. Dan
    Dan Quinn, Feb 2, 2004
  10. Its normal for KRST to make little or no color change on
    neutral or cold toned papers. Its still toning as can be
    seen by the slight intensification of the image. The effect
    of all toners is dependant on the configuration of the
    original silver image. Toners tend to be more effective on
    fine grain images. The color of the silver image is mostly a
    matter of how finely devided the silver is, the finer the
    more yellow the color. Since warm tone paper has finer
    silver grains it tones more rapidly than cold tone paper
    _and_ the toned color also tends to be yellower (for
    selenium or sulfide toners). In the case of Gold toners
    there is again very little color change to neutral or cold
    tone papers but warm toned papers will be toned blue, the
    warmer the paper the brighter the blue.
    Richard Knoppow, Feb 3, 2004
  11. Dan

    Nelson's is a good toner where partial toning is desired
    because it does not split tone. It also gives a somewhat
    different color than other direct toners. The best source of
    instructions is the patent. Some of the reprinted
    instructions in Kodak handbooks leaves out the very
    important step of refixing the prints after toning. This is
    vital if they are to be permenant.
    The patent number is USP 1,849,245 This is available from
    the U.S. Patent and Trade-Mark Office site at
    http://www.uspto.gov you will need a browser plug-in to
    display the fax tiff files. The best is Alternatiff,
    available as freeware off the web. Do a Google search to
    find it. The tiff files can be viewed off line and printed
    using the Windows imaging program.
    A good toner for protective purposes is Kodak Brown Toner
    or Agfa Viradon. These are both concentrated polysulfide
    toners. Both tone uniformly. The color of the image will
    depend on the color of the original but the shift is greater
    on cold tone papers than from KRST. A visible change is
    sufficient to impart substantial protection to oxidation.
    Both toners must be used with a 10% sulfite bath following
    toning as a sort of stop bath. Polysulfide toners have the
    peculiar property of toning faster as they become exhausted
    or diluted, so, any toner retained in the paper when it
    enters the wash bath will continue to tone untill
    substantially washed out. If washing is too slow it will
    cause a peach-colored stain in the highlights. The sulfite
    bath eliminates this problem. The current toner recommended
    by IPI for microfilm use is a polylsulfide toner. KBT,
    Viradon, or Kodak T-8 will all work. While KBT is used at
    100F for rapid toning it will work at room temperature but
    very slowly. This may actually be an advantage if one wants
    just slight toning. No fixing is required after a
    polysulfide toner. The main drawback to these two toners is
    odor. The odor is not too strong unless the toner becomes
    exhausted but there is still some "rotten egg" odor.
    Richard Knoppow, Feb 3, 2004
  12. Fred

    nick Guest

    Fred the above lead me to read the label. I am glad I never did
    before,. I am talking more than 30 years. 100 per gallon at 1:3 is
    absurd. I use 2 min 1:15 on almost anything for the color change in a
    variety of paper developer combinations which all result in different
    effects. The rare exceptions are when I don't like the color change.
    It gets dumped when it gets scungey. That means dozens of prints from
    2 oz in a quart. Since I bought the last gallon in July of last year I
    have done literally hundreds of prints, most of which properly went in
    the trash barrel (the best piece of equipment anyone can have). There
    is still about a fifth left. The lower dilutions like 1:5 and 1:7 that
    are used ocassionally don't seem to last in the tray, at least not by
    my scientific smell test.

    Archival importance I doubt because a number of my prints virtually
    all Kodabromide F toned as above, hanging on the wall for 25 years
    with no protective glass all exhibit a slight yellowing in the
    highlights when compared with the same stored in the file cabinet.

    Finally, your $23.79 is steep. I just paid $16.18 at Samy's in LA.
    They didn't have gallons which ran me $52 or so last year. Freestyle
    advertises that they will ship ground at normal fees without the
    additional hazardous material add on.

    Hope this helps

    nick, Feb 3, 2004
  13. There is no reason that KRST can't be used until it stops toning.
    It should be filtered every so often because it will accumulate bits
    of gelatin and other glop from the paper. Coffee filters work fine and
    are cheap.

    Richard Knoppow
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Richard Knoppow, Feb 3, 2004
  14. And the cheapest coffee filters work the finest.

    I bought some fancy Melitta filters (for making coffee)
    and they have little _holes_ in them, something about
    "letting the flavor through".
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Feb 3, 2004
  15. Fred

    lloyd Guest

    feb304 from Lloyd Erlick,

    I agree about the cheapest paper filters.

    But it's possible to use them inconveniently (solution flows through
    very, very slowly) or conveniently.

    'Conveniently' allows air to stay 'behind' the paper filter. If the
    filter is put into an ordinary funnel, it will stick to the smooth
    surface and filtering will take place only at the bottom over the
    hole. Therefore, either use a funnel made for coffee filtering - it
    has ridges inside meant to prevent the filter from sticking to the
    funnel - or get one of those permanent stainless or plastic filters,
    put the paper filter inside it, and put the whole thing into a plain
    funnel. This will be even faster than the ridged coffee funnel. (The
    permanent filters are a bit coarser than paper, so the paper filters
    are better for toner.)

    When I drank coffee (sigh) I cut a chunk out of an old cotton t-shirt.
    It filtered my coffee for years, and rinsed clean in a moment. For
    toner, I like a disposable filter.

    Lloyd Erlick Portraits,
    2219 Gerrard Street East, unit #1,
    Toronto M4E 2C8 Canada.
    lloyd, Feb 4, 2004
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