kodak tmax100 fixing...

Discussion in 'Kodak' started by death skunk five, May 8, 2005.

  1. Hey guys,

    Is it ever possible to clear out the entire neg on tmax 100 from that pink
    look?
    I heard I just needed longer fixing times... but I just fixed one at 6min
    and
    still has the pink tint...

    anyone ever fully clear it? or is it even possible?

    thanks.
     
    death skunk five, May 8, 2005
    #1
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  2. Try using hypo clearing solution. After fixing is complete, I wash my film
    (35mm & 120 in small tank) for 2 minutes in running water, then use Kodak
    hypo clearing solution for 2 minutes with agitation, then wash for 10
    minutes in running water. It's completely clear.

    Note that a little pink means nothing. A lot of pink (AKA magenta) may mean
    incomplete fixing I have heard. Too much fixing time is not a good idea
    either. If you fixer is exhausted you will get a magenta tone, but more
    time won't imporve on the fixing. Test your fixer and replace as necessary.
    I understand Tmax film does take more fixing time - I think in the order of
    5 minutes using Rapid Fix. It will exhaust fixer more rapidly that other
    filems like Tri-X.
     
    Pieter Litchfield, May 8, 2005
    #2
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  3. i just used agfa fix for about 6min...
    i was quick to note the pink tone... after washing for about 10min it
    cleared up... its hanging to dry now and the colours are completely gone,

    i guess it just takes a little more fixing, i always use 1 shot fix.

    everything looks good. thanks!
     
    death skunk five, May 8, 2005
    #3
  4. death skunk five

    narke Guest

    6min

    i remeber somewhere (may be in Kodak's Tech Publish) suggested a 10min
    fixing.
     
    narke, May 9, 2005
    #4
  5. death skunk five

    John Walton Guest

    The TMax films are meant to be rotary processed. I find that frequent
    agitation during the fix cycle helps. I find that using a dilute selenium
    toner solution, or simply some household amonia -- 1/2 capful in a liter of
    water -- will clear the film. Using dilute selenium toner boosts the
    contrast a bit, btw

    Pity that TechPan is going the way of the dodo --- the film base is
    absolutely clear.
     
    John Walton, May 9, 2005
    #5
  6. I don't know where you got the idea that T-Max films are meant to be
    rotary processed or that it would make any difference in the result.
    Kodak gives instructions for all types of processing. Rotary
    processing, that is, processing in drums, gives constant agitation but
    so do other machine processing methods or plain old tray processing.
    Rotary processing has the disadvantage of exposing a much larger area
    of the processing solutions to the air. This is the main reason, along
    the small quantities used, that requires one shot use of developers.
    The residual stain in T-Max, and some other films, comes from the
    type of sensitizing dye used. This dye tends to be persistent. It binds
    to the gelatin and probably the silver halide. By adjusting the pH of
    the emulsion to a point which is above (more alkaline) than the
    isoelectric point much of this binding is eliminated and the dye is
    released. Photographic gelatin has an isoelectric point just on the
    acid side of neutral. The use of a mildly alkaline bath, such as the
    weak ammonia solution you mention, serves to raise the pH enough to
    release both the dye and also hypo. Hypo is also bound by the electric
    charges in the emulsion when its more acid than the isoelectric point.
    The use of alkaline baths is well known and has been for decades. Agfa
    still suggests a 2% solution of Sodium carbonate, but Kodak, as the
    result of research many years ago, found that Ammonia is more
    effective. An even better solution is the use of a buffered solution of
    Sodium sulfite. Sulfite, beside being a mild alkali, also acts as an
    ion exchanger for thiosulfate. By buffering it to neutral the solution
    serves to make the gelatin high enough in pH to release hypo and dyes
    without completely eliminating the hardening from alum hardener (which
    operates only over a narrow pH window). Because the resulting pH is
    close to the isoelectric point the swelling of the gelatin is near
    minimum. It also has the ion exchange property of the sulfite, which
    other salts either do not have or have in a lesser amount.
    Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent is about a 2% solution of Sodium
    sulfite, which is buffered to neutral with Sodium bisulfite. It also
    contains a small amount of EDTA tetra sodium salt and sodium citrate
    (becomes citric acid in solution) which act as preservatives for the
    Sulfite, extending shelf life of the stock solution, and also sequester
    insoluble salts in the water preventing sludging when the solution is
    re-used.
    A two minute treatment in KHCA will remove the dye stain and also
    helps to release some otherwise insoluble fixer reaction products. This
    is important for films like T-Max and Tri-X, which have relatively
    large amounts of slow to fix Silver Iodide in them.
    Note that 35mm T-Max, as well as most other 35mm B&W negative
    materials, have a pigment in the support. This pigment is to prevent
    conduction of light through the film base. It is permanent and not
    affected by any processing solution. In most films it is a neutral gray
    color.
    The residual sensitizing dye in T-Max is a weak pinkish magenta
    and is quite uniform. If the film is not completely fixed it may have a
    stronger color which can be blotchy looking. Film can be refixed
    successfully if done soon enough after the original fixing. After a
    couple of weeks the residual silver and fixer reaction products may be
    transformed to a form which does not wash out.
     
    Richard Knoppow, May 9, 2005
    #6
  7. death skunk five

    Javi L Guest

    Fixing a couple more minutes will help to remove the pink tint. The little
    pink will be out during the wash. Wash it till Tmax is completely
    transparent, once you think it´s fixed and washed leave the films in steady
    water and the pink will go off with ease.
     
    Javi L, May 9, 2005
    #7
  8. Thanks - this is well written & useful!!

     
    Pieter Litchfield, May 9, 2005
    #8
  9. I think what is meant is that T-Max films need to be
    well agitated in the fix and rotary processing assures this.
    Jobo/drum/motor base processing is the only continuos agitation
    method in general use and so "rotary == continuous agitation";
    dip & dunk or nitrogen burst agitation would give similar
    results.

    TTBOMK, Kodak uses dip & dunk for determining developing times
    and then multiplies by a fudge factor [the page # divided by the
    temperature in Billings MT, same as for math homework] to get
    times for other methods. I am sure they use d&d for fixing
    the film and so don't know what all the fuss is about re
    pink negatives.

    The old "Tri-X: drop it in the fix and go do something else
    for 10 minutes" method is almost guaranteed to result in a
    pink stripe down the middle of the roll.
     
    Nicholas O. Lindan, May 9, 2005
    #9
  10. Absolutely! Both fixer and developer must be agitated
    properly. Fixing time is decreased with agitation and is
    probably minimum with constant agitation. Development rate
    increases with agitation but continuous agitation is not
    necessary to get good results provided there is sufficient
    agitation. I think one reason people have problems with
    development is incorrect or absent agitation.
    I have no idea what method Kodak uses for finding film
    curves. The technique for measuring speed using the ISO
    method is specified in the standard but may not be the same
    as used for developing sensitometric tests.
    Dip and dunk machines are typically used for
    photofinishing. Again, I have no idea what Kodak used for
    its sensitometric testing.
    Fixing rate has been very extensively researched and there
    is a ton of stuff in the literature about it. For films like
    T-Max and Tri-X, which have lots of Silver Iodide in the
    emulsion, Ammonium thiosulfate fixers ("rapid" fixers) have
    an advantage in speed and completeness of fixing. Iodide
    acts as a restrainer of fixing. Bromide does also but to
    such a small degree that it is not significant. A good test
    is to measure the clearing time of a film. This is the time
    it takes undeveloped but wet film to become visually clear
    in the fixing bath. The reason for using wetted film (soak
    for two or three minutes in water) is that fixing rate and
    the effect of the concentration of thiosulfate in the fixer,
    changes with wet vs: dry film. The fixing rate of dry film
    is misleading. The clearing time is an indicator of how well
    the fixer is working with the specific film. Total fixing
    time is, by old rule of thumb, double the clearing time.
    There is also an old rule that the fixing bath should be
    discarded when clearing time doubles from that of fresh
    fixer. At least for a single bath, and probably even for two
    bath fixing, this is too far exhausted for archival
    processing and may indicate that the fixing process is not
    being completed.
    It should be understood that clear film may still have
    enough unfixed halide or insoluble fixer reaction products
    in it to cause image degradation with time. The real test of
    completeness of fixing is to use a test solution which will
    convert any residual silver into a visible form. The usual
    tests are a solution of Sodium Sulfide (not sulfite) or a
    1:9 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner. Both the sulfide
    and the selenium will tone halide as readily as metallic
    silver so they leave a brown or yellow stain if there is
    much residual silver in the emulsion. The Selenium test must
    be used on well washed material because it fails if too much
    hypo is left in the emulsion. This is too bad because it is
    longer lasting than the sulfide solution and free from the
    rotten egg odor of sulfide.
    The sulfide test is:

    Kodak ST-1 Residual Silver Test Stock Solution
    Water 100.0 ml
    Sodium Sulfide, anhydrous 2.0 grams

    For use dilute 1 part stock with 9 parts water.

    Place a couple of drops on a clear area of the print or
    film, which should be wet but blotted free of surface water.
    Allow to stand for 2 to 3 minutes and blot off. There
    should be no visible stain.

    If it is desired to use the print or negative it should be
    washed following the test. If not washed the test area will
    develop a stain with time.

    This is a better test than the Iodide test for fixing
    baths because it is a direct test of fixer effectiveness.
    For prints its best to fix and wash a scrap of paper for the
    purposes of testing rather than using the border of an
    actual print since the scrap can be tossed away after the
    test is completed.

    I would like to find out from Kodak how they go about
    sensitometric testing. I will try to write to my contact
    there but the customer service people are pretty isolated
    from whatever laboratory people are still there.
    BTW, I have always gotten good results from T-Max films
    but they very certainly are more sensitive to variations in
    development than other films. To get predictable contrast
    one must be careful of temperature and time and consistent
    in agitation. T-Max is capable of very high densities so
    over exposed or over developed negatives can be extremely
    difficult to print.
     
    Richard Knoppow, May 10, 2005
    #10
  11. death skunk five

    Frank Pittel Guest

    I've been working with Tmax films for a number of years.
    As most of the people here know I use a jobo processor for
    most of the film I shoot. For about 10% of the film I process
    the film by hand. I also use Kodak's rapid fixer but used to use
    Kodak's "regular powder" fixer.

    I reuse the fixer and used to test it with hypo check. After a
    while I noticed that if Tmax film didn't clear after a 5min fix and ten
    minute wash the fixer was exhausted. As Kodak states clearly a little
    bit of magenta stain in the negative doesn't effect the archivability
    of the negative and doesn't effect printing. I can't make any claims
    about the archivability I can state from experience that a little
    stain has no effect printing the negative.



    : : >
    : >> ... T-Max films are [not necessarily] meant to be rotary
    : >> processed ...
    : >> Kodak gives instructions for all types of processing.
    : >
    : > I think what is meant is that T-Max films need to be
    : > well agitated in the fix and rotary processing assures
    : > this.
    : > Jobo/drum/motor base processing is the only continuos
    : > agitation
    : > method in general use and so "rotary == continuous
    : > agitation";
    : > dip & dunk or nitrogen burst agitation would give similar
    : > results.
    : >
    : > TTBOMK, Kodak uses dip & dunk for determining developing
    : > times
    : > and then multiplies by a fudge factor [the page # divided
    : > by the
    : > temperature in Billings MT, same as for math homework] to
    : > get
    : > times for other methods. I am sure they use d&d for
    : > fixing
    : > the film and so don't know what all the fuss is about re
    : > pink negatives.
    : >
    : > The old "Tri-X: drop it in the fix and go do something
    : > else
    : > for 10 minutes" method is almost guaranteed to result in a
    : > pink stripe down the middle of the roll.
    : >
    : > --
    : > Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
    : > Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
    : > To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
    : > psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

    : Absolutely! Both fixer and developer must be agitated
    : properly. Fixing time is decreased with agitation and is
    : probably minimum with constant agitation. Development rate
    : increases with agitation but continuous agitation is not
    : necessary to get good results provided there is sufficient
    : agitation. I think one reason people have problems with
    : development is incorrect or absent agitation.
    : I have no idea what method Kodak uses for finding film
    : curves. The technique for measuring speed using the ISO
    : method is specified in the standard but may not be the same
    : as used for developing sensitometric tests.
    : Dip and dunk machines are typically used for
    : photofinishing. Again, I have no idea what Kodak used for
    : its sensitometric testing.
    : Fixing rate has been very extensively researched and there
    : is a ton of stuff in the literature about it. For films like
    : T-Max and Tri-X, which have lots of Silver Iodide in the
    : emulsion, Ammonium thiosulfate fixers ("rapid" fixers) have
    : an advantage in speed and completeness of fixing. Iodide
    : acts as a restrainer of fixing. Bromide does also but to
    : such a small degree that it is not significant. A good test
    : is to measure the clearing time of a film. This is the time
    : it takes undeveloped but wet film to become visually clear
    : in the fixing bath. The reason for using wetted film (soak
    : for two or three minutes in water) is that fixing rate and
    : the effect of the concentration of thiosulfate in the fixer,
    : changes with wet vs: dry film. The fixing rate of dry film
    : is misleading. The clearing time is an indicator of how well
    : the fixer is working with the specific film. Total fixing
    : time is, by old rule of thumb, double the clearing time.
    : There is also an old rule that the fixing bath should be
    : discarded when clearing time doubles from that of fresh
    : fixer. At least for a single bath, and probably even for two
    : bath fixing, this is too far exhausted for archival
    : processing and may indicate that the fixing process is not
    : being completed.
    : It should be understood that clear film may still have
    : enough unfixed halide or insoluble fixer reaction products
    : in it to cause image degradation with time. The real test of
    : completeness of fixing is to use a test solution which will
    : convert any residual silver into a visible form. The usual
    : tests are a solution of Sodium Sulfide (not sulfite) or a
    : 1:9 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner. Both the sulfide
    : and the selenium will tone halide as readily as metallic
    : silver so they leave a brown or yellow stain if there is
    : much residual silver in the emulsion. The Selenium test must
    : be used on well washed material because it fails if too much
    : hypo is left in the emulsion. This is too bad because it is
    : longer lasting than the sulfide solution and free from the
    : rotten egg odor of sulfide.
    : The sulfide test is:

    : Kodak ST-1 Residual Silver Test Stock Solution
    : Water 100.0 ml
    : Sodium Sulfide, anhydrous 2.0 grams

    : For use dilute 1 part stock with 9 parts water.

    : Place a couple of drops on a clear area of the print or
    : film, which should be wet but blotted free of surface water.
    : Allow to stand for 2 to 3 minutes and blot off. There
    : should be no visible stain.

    : If it is desired to use the print or negative it should be
    : washed following the test. If not washed the test area will
    : develop a stain with time.

    : This is a better test than the Iodide test for fixing
    : baths because it is a direct test of fixer effectiveness.
    : For prints its best to fix and wash a scrap of paper for the
    : purposes of testing rather than using the border of an
    : actual print since the scrap can be tossed away after the
    : test is completed.

    : I would like to find out from Kodak how they go about
    : sensitometric testing. I will try to write to my contact
    : there but the customer service people are pretty isolated
    : from whatever laboratory people are still there.
    : BTW, I have always gotten good results from T-Max films
    : but they very certainly are more sensitive to variations in
    : development than other films. To get predictable contrast
    : one must be careful of temperature and time and consistent
    : in agitation. T-Max is capable of very high densities so
    : over exposed or over developed negatives can be extremely
    : difficult to print.


    : --
    : ---
    : Richard Knoppow
    : Los Angeles, CA, USA
    :




    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, May 10, 2005
    #11
  12. death skunk five

    Johnson Guest

    I got the idea from Kodak.
     
    Johnson, May 10, 2005
    #12
  13. death skunk five

    Lloyd Erlick Guest

    ....


    may1005 from Lloyd Erlick,

    If I recall, Kodak specifies continuous agitation in the fixer for
    T-Max films. I use a double-bath setup for my film fixer, and I
    agitate the whole time the film is fixing. My T-Max 400 (TMY) negs
    never have any color. If I'm careless and over-use my fixer, the color
    is present.

    The effect of ammonia is interesting. I hadn't thought of that.
    Treatment with selenium is supposed to be an archival enhancement in
    processing black and white negatives, too.

    regards,
    --le
    ________________________________
    Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
    voice: 416-686-0326
    email:
    net: www.heylloyd.com
    ________________________________
    --
     
    Lloyd Erlick, May 10, 2005
    #13
  14. My Kodak data manual has procedures for both small tank and sheet Tmax. As
    a 35mm/120 user, I use small tanks. The procedure calls for 5 seconds of
    agitation every 30. 5 quick flips of the wrist.
     
    Pieter Litchfield, May 10, 2005
    #14
  15. death skunk five

    Lloyd Erlick Guest

    ....


    may1005 from Lloyd Erlick,

    Pink Skunk:

    Three ounces Tequila
    One ounce exhausted fixer
    Garnish with strip of inadequately fixed 35mm film

    regards,
    --le
    ________________________________
    Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
    voice: 416-686-0326
    email:
    net: www.heylloyd.com
    ________________________________
    --
     
    Lloyd Erlick, May 10, 2005
    #15
  16. I seem to remember a description of Kodak using d&d and
    a fudge factor to figure developing times from an article
    about the development [er, creation] of Xtol in
    Photo Techniques magazine.
     
    Nicholas O. Lindan, May 10, 2005
    #16
  17. death skunk five

    John Guest

    Put it on your lightbox for a little while. The dye is UV sensitive and will fade.


    Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org

    Millions of men have lived to fight, build palaces and boundaries, shape destinies and
    societies; but the most compelling force of all times has been the force of originality
    and creation profoundly affecting the roots of human spirit.
    Ansel Adams
     
    John, May 11, 2005
    #17
  18. death skunk five

    John Guest

    John you know better than this !

    JD - www.puresilver.org
     
    John, May 11, 2005
    #18
  19. death skunk five

    John Guest

    Ah ! This explains Sylvias inaccuracies with Xtol !

    JD
     
    John, May 11, 2005
    #19
  20. death skunk five

    John Guest

    Yep. Photo Techniques gave a complete story on Xtol and how Sylvia Z. and Dick D.
    established all of the times for the original J107 publication.

    JD - www.puresilver.org
     
    John, May 11, 2005
    #20
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