last hoorah of film?

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Dale, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. Dale

    Dale Guest

    is there enough time for digital capture, display, proofing and output
    such that a new hybrid system could be developed before such digital
    exceeded quality, workflow, or establishment investment? including new
    hybrid films

    if the answer is no, the scale down of hybrid systems should prepare
    analog/hybrid calibration and characterization information to use in
    digital, such as ICC abstract profiles, or manipulation algorithms, the
    "look and feel" of film systems has left things like B&W on the market
    for a VERY long time, and as for algorithms Photoshop got unsharp
    masking for sharpening from ananlog film use cases

    I'll talk about my limited experience with color, I have very little
    experience with image structure (speed, sharpness, grain, lens angle,
    etc.) so I won't talk about them

    storage and portability within and outside a hybrid system are easily
    handled by ICC with the right choices of RIMM, ERIMM, ROMM, so I won't
    elucidate on hybrid to digital export or storage

    you could do one capture, manipulation, output film/process with the
    right hybrid equipment and software system to deal with that film

    color negative would be the preferred capture film ERIMM with the most
    dynamic range even leading to around 3-5 stops of exposure latitude, I
    think, and then there is panchromatic B&W that can be related to the
    scene,, ProPhoto RGB covers 90% of surface colors, as for the other 10%
    and spectral reflectances from wide band lighting, you might want an
    IDEAL ERIMM, RIMM and ROMM like PRM(G) is an ideal

    of course you can's project a negative film, unless you had a reversal
    projector,, but if you convert the scan of the negative into an RGB
    space during scanning, that could be the ROMM instead of making a
    transparency film the ROMM

    film contrast is not linear like gamma, it has a toe and shoulder due to
    chemical activity and exhaustion and optimization thereof, that curves
    off highlights and shadows leaving them reproducible and not clipping
    them like sRGB (rec 709) does

    Kodak offers some printing dot solutions, one is quadratic, the other
    claims to deal with highlights and shadows

    if digital (print is digital) can deal with a quadratic, a hybrid system
    should be able to translate the incoming analog film that is modeling
    with respect to contrast quadratically should be able to be translated
    to linear gamma

    ICC does not reveal the assumed film or idealistic/standard film used in
    ProPhoto RGB

    ProPhotoRGB chromaticity coordinates are linear with CIE chromaticity

    CIE tone is linear with light (L,Y,B,V) or linear with lightness (L*)

    film due to chemical considerations of activity and exhaustion and
    design for dynamic range treatments, has a toe and shoulder modeled and
    designed using a quadratic as opposed to linear contrast, such as a
    rational quadratic which does not bend over the toe or shoulder

    since film contrast is not linear, some calculations must be performed
    to have it linear

    ICC does not reveal such considerations

    Kodak designed ProPhoto RGB, probably in light of sRGB workflows being
    accepted, as opposed to using an ideal digital camera and an ideal
    digital projector as the RIMM,ERIMM, ROMM (additive color used in
    displays has more dynamic range than subtractive colors used prints)

    one Kodak implementation I know called Premier (a system of scanning
    film, manipulating and editing film, and outputting film) used a
    linearized film assumption

    I believe this linearization was achieved by unbuilding the rationall
    quadratic contrast, and some form of interimage of an Ektachrome film of
    the time, be it spectral sensitivity interimage or chemical process
    interimage, I don't really know which one or if both were used, I heard
    it once but I forget

    some use cases would prefer color matching as opposed to appearance
    matching and would not use RIMM,ERIMM, ROMM, they would use CIE RGB

    but most use cases involve a viewing and acceptance of an image, even if
    it just a consumer looking at something and saying it is "good enough"

    what is ProPhotoRGB? Is it a negative with exposure latitude suiting it
    to ERIMM? if so this could complement many hybrid workflows where
    transparency film output is used or copied in an analog fashion

    in fact you could design a color negative film to be scanned,
    manipulated, output, and projected with ICC color management

    you unbuild the non-linearity and crosstalk of the film as long as it's
    image dyes chromaticity coordinates result in something close enough to
    linear with CIE chromaticity coordinates, making it easier to scan on a
    scanner whose exposure, filtration and sensitivity are designed to be
    linear with CIE chromaticity coordinates

    manipulation algorithms relative to CIE are widely available, but you
    could add analog editing, and hybrid algorithms to the mix

    you can design a projector (exposure, filtration) in a digital
    environment, with the right analog and hybrid manipulation
    consideration, to display a color negative instead of using a
    transparency intermediate

    such a projector design leads to an easy film recorder design

    same with monitor design ...

    is film dead? should you snip most of the above? are professional
    digital capture, manipulation and output already exceeding color
    negatives for dynamic range and exposure latitude? even considering push
    and pull chemical processing?

    then why not a digital RIMM,ERIMM and ROMM?

    the ICC site says color managed workflows have not taken hold in
    digital, I read once, is this because of sRGB(video) and
    ProPhotoRGB(film) workflow interference?

    are digital RIMM,ERIMM and ROMM to far outside of CIE eye based
    considerations? then why not use CIE RGB for the RIMM,ERIMM, and ROMM

    probably the best bet considering printed page is not dead and
    Perceptual Reference Medium (PRM) can be used in ICC
    is to give customers choices for their use cases of what reference suits

    things like lighting, surround, flare, viewing angle, measurement
    considerations likewise could all be incorporated

    a little more education,, maybe too much for "good enough" color,
    especially since "more attractive color" exists

    some form of device independent "accurate" color and appearance must be
    a starting point?

    for consumers, white balance might not be the only scene balance that is
    used, you could use analog and hybrid models to get to the "more
    attractive color" achieved in consumer films like "pop" saturation

    sensitized photographic film and paper have a toe and shoulder in their
    contrast, it is an artifact of chemical activity and exhaustion that
    just so happens to provide a system to deal with dynamic range, such as
    highlights and shadows when such chemistry is optimized, and perhaps
    even before optimized which I don't know

    the contrast of chemical media, is modeled with rational quadratic and
    other non-linear but not cubic terms, leaving it to remain within
    measurement and hybrid systems modeling/engineering ease and simplicity

    pure digital has gamma, a linear contrast

    gamma works just fine when the capture, manipulation and output can
    handle the dynamic range of a scene or artistically created image in a
    wide enough gamut working space

    what I glean from the ICC website http"// is that output
    profiles are mapped to the maximal machine code for that device, this
    means additive systems will have the brightest display, and subtractive
    systems will have the darkest display, regardless of accuracy, perhaps
    leaving a linear toe and shoulder from the accurate gamut to the machine

    this is really not a capture issue, but it is an output and manipulation

    if you used a rational quadratic like Kodak uses for its film and paper
    contrasts from the region of accurate to machine maximal color, you
    might deal with highlights and shadows better, it involves a
    non-linearity in calculation but still a one dimensional look-up table,
    probably not as applicable to embedded systems which I don't know

    in the case of ROMM, RIMM, ERIMM, I can see why you might not want to do
    this to maintain linearity to CIE standards and the end points are not
    mapped like output devices as far as I know, except with the
    linearization to ProPhoto RGB which I will address in another post
    search for ROMM, RIMM, ERIMM and ProPhoto RGB

    my means are much limited compared to when I worked in Kodak R&D 17
    years ago, I can study stuff, but my applications are consumer capture
    and display pretty much, color manipulation is maturing in GIMP which I
    no longer have since Redhat uses a version predated color management,
    and my cell phone is not a smart phone

    I see clipping of shadows in consumer capture when printed, how printed
    I don't know
    I see clipping of highlights on at least television display (I have
    CRT),, haven't really viewed my LCD computer monitor enough to say there

    sRGB has failed the consumer use case it wanted, at the expense of some
    long term development of open systems of color, ProPhoto RGB delivers a
    centralized system,, but in gamut is not big enough to accommodate
    digital capture, impending digital display and probably digital
    projection as I gather, maybe a filter set and associated spectral
    considerations of sensitivity or density would be a better ROMM, RIMM,

    both empirical (easy way) and mechanistic (hard way) are supported
    mathematically by the ICC, but you could do your own system

    empirical characterization entails printing an equipment code value
    target to the "calibrated" equipment and relating it mathematically as a
    profile to the color of the profile connection space, usually cubic, a
    three dimensional profile for 3 colorant mediums, I know there are at
    least or there once was 4 colorant mediums from Fuji, I'll allow you to
    derive this from my post yourself, it is not hard if you know it

    even B&W colorants like silver halides have a hue that must be either
    maintained or translated in the ICC profile like a three colorant
    system, the eye is a three colorant system, I will allow you to derive
    B&W yourself, it is not hard if you know it

    with the advent of RIMM, ERIMM, and ROMM in ICC you can use digital
    manipulation for hybrid systems (you can search for these on the ICC
    site and they are from ProPhoto RGB according to wikipedia)

    so why would you want to do it the hard way, mechanistically?

    1) want to retain analog manipulation methods
    2) want to have analog manipulation algorithms within digital
    3) want to an analog capture of scene colorimetry
    4) multi-stage analog/hybrid systems do not calibrate
    (steady-state calibration is a prerequisite for profile characterization)
    5) want to design new analog equipment or manipulation
    6) want to design new sensitized media for a hybrid system
    ( a film program was around 5 million at Kodak 17 years ago)
    7) want to design a better analog RIMM, ERIMM or ROMM

    so how to do it the hard way?

    first, you will need a lot of information, the preferred way of getting
    this method is from analog media, equipment and software companies, as
    opposed to the investment yourself, some analog technology really
    requires single layer coatings to resolve crosstalk from spectral
    sensitivity and chemical processing, chemical processing can be just the
    way it is, process variability across or inside labs, or by design with
    things like DIR or DIAR couplers intended to reduce or optimize chemical

    Kodak has licensed some hybrid or analog technology to IMAX, the analog
    industry may be willing to deal at this point, additionally some analog
    and hybrid information may be patented, when I was at Kodak R&D many
    things were not patented due to other nations not respecting
    intellectual property, PhotoCD was patented as a last ditch effort to
    leverage capture film into digital systems

    so what type of information will you need?

    spectral sensitivity of capture mediums
    (for some systems digital capture sensitivity needs resolved to sensor
    and filtration)
    spectrophotometry of print (subtractive) output mediums
    (spectral data might have to be resolved to light source and filtration)
    spectroradiometry of display (additive) output mediums
    spectroradiometry of analog and hybrid printers
    (for some systems such radiometry of equipment needs resolved to light
    source and filtration)
    chemical colorant response to light of medium (DlogE)
    interimage, overall crosstalk of medium
    single layer coatings of mediums to resolve chemical versus sensitivity

    what are the use cases?
    1) captures (digital, hybrid or analog)(scene or like printing density)
    2) manipulations (digital, hybrid or analog)
    3) outputs (digital, hybrid or analog)

    spectral information is a one dimensional look-up table without crosstalk
    crosstalks are at least a linear matrix
    DlogE is best represented with a rational quadratic, higher math effects
    the central linearity, complete linearity effects toe and shoulder,
    highlight and shadow detail where dynamic range is low, this is still a
    one dimensional look-up table
    digital contrast is linear, gamma
    hybrid input/output contrast is calibrated for gamma in most cases
    multi-stage systems typically use some standard assumptions, mostly what
    equipment/software/measurement the systems engineer is working with

    any mathematician can take it from here to get all use cases

    if you want me to do a use case, just reply, I have a lot of time on my

    by the way, there is a book about "making" Kodak film, but not
    "designing" it, maybe the author might want to add a understandable
    compilation of this to his book
    Dale, Mar 1, 2014
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