Lazy people and "smartphones" continue to erode P&S sales

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by RichA, Dec 24, 2011.

  1. RichA

    Trevor Guest

    Right, but as I said, taking one shot is even less likely to give you the
    right one for fast action because of reaction time. Will depend on
    predictabilty of course, which is not always guaranteed.

    Actually the processor is on to detect the button press. If you turn it off
    all together, pressing the button does nothing. And even when on you
    introduce lag when the system is in sleep mode before a shot can be taken.
    Not huge for a dslr these days, but significant for anyone capturing action
    shots.

    Right, and yet pro's do demand high sequence rates these days, and even the
    cheapest P&S's have continuous still shooting modes (apart from movie mode).
    Once upon a time only pro's had high speed film winders and large capacity
    backs on their SLR's. You had to have a good reason to go to that expense,
    PLUS film cost!

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Feb 3, 2012
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  2. Nope.
    You have to differentiate between
    - repeatable actions: anything that can be shot again and again
    - semi-repeatable actions: Things that can be repeated, but
    only a very limited number of times, and not identically.
    E.g. Raising the flag at Ivo Jima
    - unrepeatable actions: The moment JFK was shot. The first goal
    in the superbowl 2012.

    And between
    - specific predictable action (where you have a 'countdown'
    to the decisive moment), e.g. a runner reaching the finish,
    a ball entering the goal after a longer flight, ...
    - generally predictable action (where you can sort of frame and
    preshoot), but cannot predict the exact moment. E.g. a water
    ballon, being filled, just starts to burst.
    - unpredictable action (no time to frame or too long a time
    to wait): someone robbing a store 6 years after the camera
    was attached. A specific lightning bolt.
    - well predictable actions that are too fast between the start of
    the 'countdown' and the event for a human to trigger: a bullet
    just leaving an apple. A foot kicking a ball --- at the moment
    where the ball is maximally deformed.

    If it can be triggered by an experienced human, if it can be
    triggered by any technical means (available to you) and is either
    repeatable or maths and physics can show you how much delay to
    use you're better off without machine gun shooting.

    If it's not triggerable, you have to make do with preshooting,
    or better, extremely high frequency shooting. You'll miss the
    deceive moment, but depending on the shooting frequency you'll
    be close. If that difference matters depends on you.

    Of course, if you want a sort-of movie ... maschinegun it is!
    If you've no chance to frame it and focus it ...

    Nope. I'll bet you that it's asleep. Even desktop computers on
    mains send their processor asleep nowaday till there's some work
    to be done --- why should a battery driven camera let it run?

    You don't need the processor to generate an interrupt. You might
    need it to handle the interrupt, but not to generate the interrupt
    that wakes it.

    So your laptop does nothing if you press a key and it's just
    in S3?
    It's absolutely negible. It doesn't need to boot again,
    after all. (and that's 0.25s in a 20D and again much faster
    in newer cameras, with 0.1s being average)
    It's vastly faster than the time between half-press and full
    press of the shutter, even if you press as fast as you can.

    When a halfway modern laptop handles 400 wakeups per second and is
    93% in C3 (deep sleep, every clock signal stopped) or even deeper
    (down to "everything but a static RAM inside the CPU at 0V") (and
    0.7-2% in C2) and is then idle 90% of the rest (with another 8%
    in the lowest frequency) ... you can imagine yourself how fast
    wakeups are. Not something you want to do 100,000 times per
    second. Starting up the PLLs and reloading the caches takes time.

    But not *much* time. 400 wakeups and 93% idle time means
    that wakeup must be (much) faster than 1/400 of 7%, or much
    faster than 1/5700s. 1/10,000s or 1/30.000s or faster.
    That's "significant for anyone capturing action shots"?
    That's much faster than the action shooter's reaction time
    variability, much faster than even the 300x200'ish high speed
    video shot-to-shot time available in digital prosumer
    cameras.
    I just see the landscape, the portrait, the architecture, the
    stilllife, the macro, and several other pros[1] clamoring for
    600 fps[2]

    There are some very few areas where 10, 11, 12, 13 fps
    are well usable --- remember, pros demand high resolution and
    high image quality! And that means usually at least a crop DSLR,
    usually a FF DSLR or medium format--- amongst them:
    - Studio where the second shot is just lit by the backlight
    flashes (to automate masking). They'd want 50 or even more
    fps, so subject movement (hair waving from the wind
    machine, for example) better frozen. However, reading
    *many* pixels *fast* means either low image quality or
    masses of digitizers (i.e. extremely expensive).
    - some type of wildlife (not all of them are happy to shoo
    the wildlife away by mirror and shutter maschine gun
    firing). Capturing the chameleon's tongue shooting out.
    - Expanding on the above: when the subject is non-cooperative
    and fast moving and has fleeting, irregular, too hard to
    predict moments you're trying to catch. Politicans
    showing their real face, for example.

    Pros might also want to capture events very close together:
    Pie approaching pop star, pie hitting in face, pie parts
    flying everywhere, body guards tackling pop star, pop star
    just about to hit the ground, pop star on ground while body
    guards draw weapons and start firing wildly into the masses
    :)
    But usually no AF then, and usually a 1-3 fps.
    Once upin a time most pros didn't use either, and still did
    marvelous work.

    -Wolfgang

    [1] And that's "pros do demand", not "pro's", there's nothing
    belonging to "pro" that demands, there is no "pro is do
    demand" either. Sheesh, I'm supposed to be the non-native
    speaker here, making stupid mistakes ...
    [2] that's AFAIR available with some consumer/prosumer
    bridge cameras ... at very low resolution.
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 6, 2012
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  3. RichA

    Guest Guest

    i'm sure you know quite well that's just twisting things. the original
    post made the distinction between computer and smartphone, something
    everyone but you apparently understands.
    it's busy whenever i go into a bank, which fortunately, is a lot less
    often than i used to.
    actually, checks are very easy to use. can you write with a pen?
    nonsense. if security is an issue, you can use vpn if the connection
    itself isn't already encrypted, which it frequently is. many things,
    such as streaming netflix works quite well over cell (if you don't have
    data limits) or wifi.
    not obvious enough.
    it's a very big advantage. keyboards are not needed for a lot of things
    and they get in the way a lot of times.
    cables? you still use cables?
    that's a drawback.
    bullshit. very few laptops have gps unless it's added via a card,
    although more will have a 3g card. that means it can't be assumed to
    always be there.

    not only that, but a location aware tablet or phone can wake from sleep
    to alert the user depending on their location (a geofence) or other
    event (e.g., weather alert).
    which laptop can receive push alerts over 3g while it's sleeping? does
    it also have a motor to lift the screen so you can see the alert? if
    you sleep the laptop, the 3g card is powered *off*.
    you're going to hold up your 24" display with a camera clipped to the
    top and a long tether cable to the main computer? give me a fucking
    break.

    mobile *is* the future, no matter how hard people try to reject it.
    very few, if any. are you really going to shake your laptop to play a
    game, assuming there is a laptop that supports shake?
    laptops and desktops are completely unsuited to very many tasks and
    barely tolerable for many more.
    there is no hd. they have flash and most people don't fill it, so it's
    not considered 'tiny.'
    actually quite fast. in fact, an ipad running imovie outperforms some
    desktops. quite a bit is done on the gpu, not the processor.
    many tasks do not need a keyboard.
    not needed.
    wash your hands.
    300+ ppi is very high res, more than the typical eye can resolve.
    usb, wifi and bluetooth are all standard.
    the fact you have to add cameras and code proves my point.

    out of the box, an ipad or iphone will do the above. the only thing you
    need to do is install the app, which is one tap.
    my bank has no stupid restrictions. in fact, it has less restrictions
    than many banks, since most don't do smartphone deposits (yet). i can
    bank anywhere i want, whenever i want. in fact, i deposited a check
    just yesterday in my kitchen. people still send me checks.
    actually, i have run photoshop on my smartphone and it did exactly what
    i needed, which was to adjust some images i took. not everything needs
    extensive retouching on a 30" lcd display.
     
    Guest, Feb 8, 2012
  4. RichA

    Guest Guest

    i don't reject or insist anything. if someone gives me a check, i can
    deposit it using my phone. not everyone is going to wire money, or even
    set up to do that. why are *you* insisting it be done your way?
     
    Guest, Feb 8, 2012
  5. RichA

    Guest Guest

    i don't have an atm in my house.
    i prefer to leave the house because i want to, not because i have to.
    if i can deposit a check in my kitchen and save myself a trip (and the
    gas and wear and tear on the car), then that's a plus, not a minus.
    for you maybe.
    i don't insist on anything. if someone sends me a check then i need to
    deposit it. i'm certainly not going to mail it back and demand that
    they wire the funds, especially since not everyone is set up for direct
    bank transfers. i grab my smartphone and it's done. why is this so
    difficult to accept?
     
    Guest, Feb 8, 2012
  6.  
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 21, 2012
  7.  
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 22, 2012
  8.  
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 22, 2012
  9. But not for the whole image at the same time --- it's a
    travelling slot and that means the ball will likely not be
    circular in the image. (It depends of course how visible
    that is and if that is good, bad or neutral for the image.)
    Yup. Though you can probably get close with some math.
    Nice. So we'll see some more interesting shots in autumn.

    Oh, it's feasible enough right now ... with analog methods. :)
    Moving data isn't the main problem. The A/D converters just
    need some time to reach quality, AFAIUI. Some time * xx million
    pixels = slow. No wonder most faster cameras have multiple
    A/D converters.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 22, 2012
  10. Tolerable, in any case. And it's not very warped (the link to it was in
    the previous message; here it is again
    And with more experience you'd get better at it -- as with most things.
    Makes using the same gun and ammo each time more important, for
    example. I hear that you can see the image by eye due to persistence of
    vision, but you'd probably be safely back from the impact area so you
    would be seeing it from quite a distance.
    We can hope. May take a while to learn how to productively employ the
    new trigger, which is now delayed until April.
    Mmmmmmm; strip cameras! They did some wild stuff for the Manhattan
    project, long long ago now. But then they had a real budget.
    If you want multiple photos, data rates are a problem, or you need a
    reall BIG ram disk.
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Feb 22, 2012
  11. RichA

    Guest Guest

    pretty much. they sent me a couple of boxes which i doubt i'll ever use
    but if i do, i can have more printed for no additional cost.
    one stamp, or i hand it to someone.
    they can deposit it with their phone.
    so a writing a check is hard but filling out a form is not?
    and if that's not possible, then what?
    streaming video from the cloud works quite well. there's no need to
    carry multiple terabytes everywhere you go.
    nobody said they're good for all tasks. for many tasks, they're well
    suited, if not more so, than a keyboard and mouse.
    it's possible to write a book with a manual typewriter too. it doesn't
    mean it's the best choice.
    no it most definitely is not.
    smartphones don't flip.
    wrong. 3g is always on, otherwise it would not be able to get calls,
    text messages or push notifications.
    yes i do.
    shallow or not, it's sleeping.
    which bank offers deposit by camera clipped to your computer?

    the hardware might be able to do it (rather inconveniently) but there
    is no software for it.
    the transition is happening right *now*.
    then you won't mind if your laptop is subject to strong magnetic fields
    or shock from being dropped.
    actually, an ipad running imovie outperforms many current systems at
    some things due to its cpu & gpu.
    i've used an ipad for many hours without any fatigue. i didn't need to
    lift my arm either.
    except that you *can't* write such an app for a laptop unless you
    require specific hardware to be added, and at best, it's going to be
    very clumsy.

    meanwhile, *any* ipad can do it.
    except that the laptop's camera is facing the wrong way for an
    astronomy app and holding a laptop to look at stars in the sky and
    rotating it as needed is rather awkward.

    this is without question, a task that tablets do *much* better than
    laptops ever could.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2012
  12. RichA

    Guest Guest

    the system is not stupid. it has advantages and disadvantages just like
    everything else.
    no, the solution is to let people decide for themselves what the best
    way for them to conduct their financial transactions and not tell them
    what is best for them.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2012
  13. RichA

    tony cooper Guest

    I don't think you understand the US banking system. Direct bank
    transfers between people, or between people and businesses, are not
    available to many - if not most - US bank customers. Some banks allow
    it, but charge prohibitive fees.

    A "wire transfer" is expensive. Bank of America, for example, charges
    the customer $25 for an outgoing transfer and $12 for an incoming
    transfer for a domestic transaction. For international transfer, the
    fees are $45 and $16.

    A Credit Union that I use does not offer the service at all. Many
    Americans use a Credit Union and not a bank. Credit Unions offer most
    of the same services that banks do, but generally charge less in fees.

    In the past, a check or money order would have been the only way for
    me to send money to someone else in the US for no fee or a nominal
    fee. Now, I can do it with PayPal if they have a PayPal account.
    With PayPal, international transfers are also free and easy.

    Some banks provide certified checks (they can't bounce) for customers
    at no charge or at a nominal charge. Every bank seems to have a
    different policy on this.

    I'm quite aware that European practices are quite different.

    As far as the current situation here in the US with checks, in 2011 I
    wrote a grand total of three checks. That's fewer checks than I wrote
    in a week in, say, 2000. All of my routine bills are paid using my
    bank's online banking program. Online purchases are paid with PayPal.

    The three checks I wrote were to people like the man who came to
    repair my pool's screened-in enclosure. It's customary to pay someone
    like that when the job is completed, and the amount was more than I
    had cash-on-hand. And, I wanted a record of payment.
    Pancrea? That's neither a gland nor a remedy for all ills.

    nospam's practice of depositing checks using his phone may be useful
    to him, but it would not be useful enough to everyone to justify the
    expense of the type of phone required to this. nospam doesn't seem to
    understand that not everyone has the same requirements, and that if
    you don't embrace what he does you are technologically backwards.

    That screen repairman that I gave a check to would find the phone
    deposit system beneficial enough to justify the phone cost because he
    could receive two or more checks a day. The function doesn't appeal
    to me because I get two checks a month in addition to the amounts that
    are direct-deposited in my account and I would have to pay more for a
    phone that allows this app than I consider a worthwhile expense.

    We are not concerned about checks being "a good idea" because our
    banking system is different and we really don't have much choice. The
    options you have are not available to us.
     
    tony cooper, Feb 22, 2012
  14. RichA

    Guest Guest

    nobody said it was going to be useful for everyone and phones that can
    do it are becoming very common and for not much money either.
    i never said any such thing.

    what i take issue is outright rejection of new ways of doing things
    along with your insistence that it's just as easy to stop at the atm
    that i supposedly drive by every day (there isn't one).
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2012
  15. RichA

    tony cooper Guest

    How can we do that? The European system offers some advantages that
    are not available to us. While I wouldn't call our system "stupid",
    it's fossilized compared to theirs.

    But how can we decide which to use? We have no influence over what
    the banks offer. We can't choose to use a similar system.

    Do you ever think things out before you write?

    Your phone check deposit app is no more than a work-around that offers
    some improvement for some people because our banks don't allow what
    European banks offer.
     
    tony cooper, Feb 22, 2012
  16. RichA

    Guest Guest

    i never said anything about what you or anyone else needs. i described
    a new way of depositing checks, one that i happen to find incredibly
    convenient, and you berated me for not doing it the same way you do,
    such as stopping at the atm i supposedly see every day.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2012
  17. RichA

    Guest Guest

    maybe so but short of moving to europe, that's the system you have.
    is there something stopping you from moving to where the banking system
    is more to your liking? or you can try to convince bank regulators to
    approve some changes. neither is impossible.
    yes i do. do you?
    it's not a workaround. it's a new feature for an existing system.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2012
  18. RichA

    tony cooper Guest

    I don't "berate" you for anything you do. My objections are based on
    what you say when you describe what you, and the mistakes and gross
    exaggerations you make in your comments.
     
    tony cooper, Feb 22, 2012
  19. RichA

    tony cooper Guest

    I'd be quite happy to make a reservation for nospam at the Foxconn
    worker's dormitory in Shenzhen. He won't get an entire room, but I
    can get him a bunk away from the window so he won't be disturbed by
    the falling bodies of suicides jumping from higher floors. He may
    have to share a room with several children who work long hours at low
    pay to assemble a product that is not made with the cheapest
    components.
     
    tony cooper, Feb 29, 2012
  20. RichA

    Savageduck Guest

    Most of the Foxconn suicides come from those workers on the Kindle,
    Playstation 3, Wii, & Xbox 360 production lines resulting from the
    quilt developed from using less than the best components that their
    comrade workers have available on the iPod, iPhone & iPad lines.

    The list of Foxconn customers goes well beyond Apple. Think in terms of
    Acer,Cisco, Dell, HP, Intel, MS, Motorola, Nintendo, Nokia, Samsung,
    Sony, Toshiba, & Vizio.

    It is worth noting that even Foxconn has started outsourcing to India,
    Malaysia, Mexico, Brazil, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic.
     
    Savageduck, Feb 29, 2012
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