Li-ion battery issues

I just purchased some Li-ion battery packs from a local department
store and am having problems charging them to full capacity.
The batteries only charge to half capacity.(At least according to the
camcorder.)
Here are the details.
Camera: Canon ZR45MC
Charger:Canon CA560(charges the batteries on camera via the power plug
on the camera.)
Batteries: Sakar CB-511, replacements for the Canon BP-511's.
7.4 volts 1200mah.

I've left the batteries on charge for just over 14 hours with the same
results, half charge.

Do these batteries need a 24hr or longer initial charge cycle?
(Ones that came with the camera didn't, charged right up in about 4
hours.)
I'm thinking not.
The other possiblity that crossed my mind was that maybe the camera
metering circuit is off.
I did take areading off one of the batts with a VOM and got 7.559
static.(Seems I remember my oems read around 8.1 fully charged/new.)
Fairly certain the charger/power supply is working fine.(Powers the
camera just fine. Volt readings on the charge contacts on the battery
slot read 3.12 to 3.15. Don't know if that's normal.)
I have been using the camera with a pro-style battery pack instead of
the oem styles.(Belt pack with cable and adapter module. I don't get
battery status readings on the camera display with it.)
It maybe that this has had an adverse effect on the battery display
functions on the camera?(I've been thinking that MAYBE running the
camera one cycle with the new batteries might reset the batt. meter.)
I have done all the usual, cleaning all contacts and such.

Does anyone have any experience with these cameras or Li-ion battery
issues?
Any info is appreciated.

 

You aren't getting anywhere near a full charge at 7.56 volts O/C.

Lithium ions at full charge (for both Canon and Sony) typically read
(absolute peak charge): 8.40 volts. Most Li Ion chargers bring two
cells to between 8.3 to 8.4V, depending on the temperature.

Do not modify or "repair" your charger unless you have expertise.
Lithium ions, when used with a malfunctioning (overcharging) charger,
can come to a fiery end.

Don't forget to discharge your Canons fully, (recommendation by Canon
for their BP-941 series batteries) after use. Unless you will be
using them again within a few weeks.

Sony's should be discharged to around 7.2 volts after use, if they are
going to be stored for a while.

It seems either your batteries or your charger, have a problem.

Regards,
Hughy

 

It's the batteries.
I got them at a clearance price and they're probably at least 2 years
old.
Probably why they're trying to clear them out at half price.
I'll be taking them back.
On the same subject, virtually all the battery modules I've had have
failed not due to battery wear but the electronic modules in them.
Anyone know of a fix for this problem or where one might get the
little smart chip controller cards that are in these battery modules?
I've pulled apart every one of mine that have failed only to find that
the batteries are fine(most still have at least a half charge on
them.)
The controller chipset tends to fail after just moderate use.
I've gotten as little as 50 cycles out of some, most tend to fail
after 70 or so.
I hate tossing the batteries, just don't have a means of charging
Li-ion batteries just yet.
Anyone know of a low cost way of charging Li-ion's?
(I'd want a standalone charger that has all the metering controls
internal as I'd strip the oem modules of their smart chips and be
keeping just the cells themselves in the modules.)

 

....

I've never played with this issue hands-on, but I believe one of the
functions of the "smart chip" controller is to disconnect the battery
from the charging contacts if the battery voltage drops below a safety
threshold. If by "half charge" you mean half of normal voltage, that
is probably below the threshold and the controller is doing its job
properly.

Supposedly attempting to charge lithium-ion cells that have dropped
below the threshold voltage is a primary cause of fiery failure. I've
never tried it... You could substitute some other less volatile
battery with a voltage in the acceptable range behind the controller,
and I'd bet the chip would be willing to charge it.

Loren

 

What I meant about half charge is that they still read half or more
full when they quit working.
I'd be taping with the camera and it'd just die. Lights out, nada.
I'd put on another battery and it'd fire right back up.
over the years of using these type batteries I'd had this happen often
and being a packrat and frugal to the point of cheap I'd saved all
these dead battery module. Hoping one day to find a source for
whatever went out in them.(I also use dead battery modules as
adapters, gutting them and running a power cable through them hooked
up to external battery packs.)
After accumilating a couple dozen of these deads I got curious and
cracked a few open to figure out what went wrong.
In virtually all the batteries still had considerable voltage on them
and ALL of the control circuitry on the batteries were dead.
If I had a way to charge the Li-ion's independently I couls still use
them.
Most of the standalone Li-ion chargers I've seen are pricey and I
haven't been able to find plans to build one.
I could easily put the modules back together, sans the smart chip
circuit if I could find a cost effective means of charging the cells.
I'm currently using either Ni-cad or lead-acid rechargables in a belt
pack to run all my DV cams.(Just got tired of having the oem bats die
after just 70 or so cycles, especially in the middle of important
shots.)
I am currently designing a battery pack(hard case) that'll attach onto
the bottom of the camera via the 1/4-20 tripod mount to eleminate the
power cord hassle. It'll have several sub-C ni-cads in series and a
short jumper that'll connect to the rear battery contacts via a gutted
oem module.
It would be nice to get some more life out of the old Li-ion's though.
Anyon have any info on standalone charging of Li-ion's?

 

Mr Crowley hasn't weighed in on this yet, but the following link was
forwarded by him earlier and does a fine job of describing this predicament
as well as ticking off those of us who have to deal with this.

Thanks, Mr. Crowley!

Ken P.

http://www.primecell.com/qli-Ion.htm

 

Thank you for the link.
I don't totally agree with them on a couple of points though.
I've been subing nicad/Nimh and lead acid rechargables on all my gear
that uses Li-ion for some time now.
If I can purchase a cost effective standalone charger for Li-ions I do
have a wholesaler that will sell the Li-ion cells all day long.
I'll spend some free time in the next week or so trying to find that
charger.
If you want info on how to convert your gear to standard rechargables
I'd be happy to pass on any and all I know.
Thanks again for all info everyone.

 

LMAO to all those Ipod owners who got "Jobbed"

 

That may actually be against some state laws. Lithium Ion batteries are highly
explosive. Charge or short it just the right way and it can blow like an m80.

 

Dunno what I could add. I suggested Primecell to someone
for NiCd cell replacement (after a very satisfying experience
with them myself), but I don't have any more insight to Li-ion
repair/replacement than anyone else.

I'm sure that Ipods are "throwaway" toys to Steve Jobs.
The uber-riche tend to be quite insultated from the world-
view of the majority of us.

 

Nope. He's a wholesaler, I'm a service tech with a shop.
The line of Li-ion's he sells come with an extensive disclaimer/
hazard warning label on the box.
I picked up a 12 pack from him the other day. The industrial charger
is on it's way.(Out of stock on those.)
You can make just about any battery explode if you mistreat it just
right for that matter.
The only reason I wanted to try and use Li-ion batteries was because I
had so many of these modules with good cells. Hate to waste anything.
What I'll do is build a modular battery tray that fastens onto the
camera with JUST the batteries, NO control ciruit of any kind.
When they need recharging, just open the battery tray and swap out the
cells, charging the dead ones in a standalone charger.
I've already built one that utilizes Ni-cads/Nihm cells.
I for one am tired of being screwed by the industry on these oem
batteries that for all accounts are designed to die after a set period
of time or cycles.
The only advantage of the Li-ion's is greater cell density.(more
stored power at the same or lesser weight/size.)