Limitations of Sony DVD Recorder RDR-GX7

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by John, Nov 22, 2003.

  1. John

    John Guest

    I was doing some research about the Sony RDR-GX7 DVD recorder when I came
    across an article on the dvdplusrw site that claims the DVD+RW functionality
    is limited on the Sony Dual-RW recorder, see

    http://dvdplusrw.org/Article.asp?mid=-1&sid=-2&aid=20&hl=Sony

    DVD recorders, such as those manufactured by Philips, have very important
    post recording editing functions available, such as adding new chapter stops
    (this is a really essential and valuable tool), dividing a recording into
    multiple separate titles, append a recording to an existing title, put an
    index picture screen on the screen containing thumbnail pictures for easy
    access of its contents, etc. Apparently, the Sony RDR-GX7 is incapable of
    doing any of this editing.

    The article claims that:

    "... from an editing point of view the RDR-GX7 is very limited when using
    DVD+RW discs. You have no editing or convenience functionality whatsoever
    when you use DVD+RW media."

    The article explains why Sony probably left out the specific added
    functionality normally available from a DVD+RW recorder. It is apparently an
    attempt to minimize the confusion that can arise when a user has both minus
    RW and plus RW recording options on the same machine.

    Can anyone confirm that the Sony RDR-GX7 does have very limited editing
    functions for the +RW format. In particular, I think it is a real pity that
    you cannot add new chapter stops after a recording has been made because one
    of the main advantages of DVD recording is to be able to jump immediately to
    any part of the video that is important to you.

    I like the Philips DVD recorders because they have the full +RW editing
    functions available, but a friend is on to his third laser (under warranty)
    on his Philips DVDR890, so perhaps there are still reliability problems with
    Philips recorders? Perhaps such problems have been fixed with the new
    Philips range, such as the Philips DVDR75? Can anyone advise on this please?

    I have looked also at some Panasonic DVD recorders (such as the Panasonic
    DMR-E60 and the Panasonic DMR-E80H), but they don't appeal because the only
    rewriteable media that can be used is the DVD RAM discs, and these are not
    only expensive but can only be played back on the recorder and other
    Panasonic DVD players. Granted you can record on DVD-R discs when you want
    to swap discs with other people, but these can only be used once and you end
    up throwing them out after you have watched the recording you have made,
    which is a waste of money. If the DVD-RAM discs were cheaper and could be
    played on most DVD players, then I think this format would be a winner.
    Alternatively, why can't Panasonic recorders have both DVD-RAM and DVD+RW
    options on their machines?

    John
     
    John, Nov 22, 2003
    #1
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  2. John

    John Guest

    My comments regrading the Sony DVD recorder are based solely on the article
    referred to on the dvdplusrw site, so I am not claiming to have a clue as to
    whether the information is correct or not. I am merely asking experienced
    users of Sony DVD recorders to tell me whether the information in the
    article is correct or not. Some specific information about the questions
    asked would be appreciated. I think it is true that users of Panasonic DVD
    recorders are finding that the rewriteable RAM discs lack compatibility with
    most other DVD players, other than those manufactured by Panasonic.

    John
     
    John, Nov 22, 2003
    #2
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  3. John

    luminos Guest

    And, amazingly, automobile engines lack compatability with maple syrup.
     
    luminos, Nov 22, 2003
    #3
  4. John

    John Guest

    Because I live in New Zealand, the cost factors are more important than
    apply in some other countries. For example, a double sided 9.4g cartridge is
    about $35, and a single sided one about $25. And DVD-R discs cost about $8
    each, so it makes sense to buy the +RW discs that cost about $12 each and
    that can be recorded on about 1000 times. In addition, if you make a DVD+RW
    for a friend, this can be returned to you and you can add chapters in later
    under the +RW system. You can't do this with a DVD-R once only rewriteable
    disc. The DVD-RAM system with its cost in New Zealand is prohibitively
    expensive at this point in time.

    John
     
    John, Nov 22, 2003
    #4
  5. John

    John Guest

    The lack of compatibility of DVD-RAM discs with other players and most
    computer DVD writers is why the Panasonic system is, IMHO far inferior to
    the plus RW system. Are you saying that compatibility between DVD players
    and recorders is not important? Then think again and have a look at how Sony
    and Philips and LG are trying to see that their equipment is compatible with
    the widest range of players and recorders. But if you can't see this point,
    I suggest you stick with talking about maple syrup and automobile engines.

    John
     
    John, Nov 23, 2003
    #5
  6. John

    luminos Guest

    Unbelievable.
     
    luminos, Nov 23, 2003
    #6
  7. John

    John Guest

    This is 8 New Zealand dollars. I agree it is ridiculous pricing particularly
    when $1 US is worth NZ 64 cents. But it is impractical to import DVDs from
    overseas and taxes have to be paid when goods enter the country (GST of
    12.5%).
     
    John, Nov 23, 2003
    #7
  8. The disk would be too scratched up before you even recorded to it 100
    times let alone a thousand. With that much handeling it make RW of any
    flavor moot.

    -R works period
     
    bounty hunter, Nov 23, 2003
    #8
  9. John

    John Guest

    Good point, I guess this is why DVD RAM discs can be bought with cartridges.
    Panasonic claims DVD RAM discs can be recorded on 100,000 times, do you
    think this is possible? Is a DVD RAM disc really that much more robust than
    a DVD + or - RW disc?

    The problem with recording on DVD-R and DVD-RW and DVD+R, is that the
    editing possibilities, after you have made the recording, are very limited.
    However, with +RW, you can carry out lots of useful editing functions after
    recording, including the insertion of chapter and the dividing of titles.

    John
     
    John, Nov 23, 2003
    #9
  10. John

    Rick Pali Guest

    The quote of 100,000 rewrites assumes the disc is never taken out of the
    cartridge. Many players will not take the cartridges, and in that case the
    rating drops to 10,000 just like DVD-RW and DVD+RW discs... Unless the
    Panasonic boxes can take the cartridges, there is no media longevity
    advantage...and DVD-RAM discs cost quite a lot more at least around here.

    Rick.
    -+---

    http://www.alienshore.com/seeking/
     
    Rick Pali, Nov 23, 2003
    #10
  11. John

    luminos Guest

    The main thing you miss is that because the RAM discs are hard-sectored,
    they are exceptionally reliable and fast in finding data. That is why they
    are used for time-slipping in the Panasonics.
     
    luminos, Nov 23, 2003
    #11
  12. John

    Rick Pali Guest

    Fair enough...but that doesn't invalidate anything I've said. They're still
    rated at 10,000 re-writes.

    For what it's worth, I really would've liked to be aware of DVD-RAM's
    advantages when I bought my burner...I would've put it to good use. Ah
    well...

    Rick.
    -+---

    http://www.alienshore.com/seeking/
     
    Rick Pali, Nov 23, 2003
    #12
  13. John

    Phil Leonard Guest

    http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/computer/storage/dvdram/index.html

    This will link you to just about everything regarding DVD-RAM including the
    the Recordable DVD Council and the DVD-RAM partners. If interested.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The leading producer of DVD MULTI drives, Panasonic's fourth-generation 4.7GB
    single-sided and 9.4GB double-sided rewritable industry standard drives record
    to DVD-RAM / DVD-R / DVD-RW / CD-R / CD-RW media, and provide superior
    performance and reliability. Fully compliant with the DVD Forum's standards,
    the single-sided media is capable of storing a full two-hours of MPEG2 video.
    Panasonic's new drives and media offer unprecedented media interchangeability
    and seven times the capacity of CD-R and CD-RW...all for less than $.005/MB.
    The DVD MULTI drive reads industry-standard DVD-ROM, DVD-Video, DVD-R, CD-ROM,
    CD-R/RW, CD-DA, Photo CD, and Video CD media. The random-access, drag-and-drop
    DVD-RAM storage media provides in excess of 100,000 write/rewrite cycles and
    data life in excess of 30 years.
     
    Phil Leonard, Nov 23, 2003
    #13
  14. John

    Phil Leonard Guest

    Partners (Just FYI)

    http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/computer/storage/dvdram/about/partner.htm

    We work closely with a large number of software and hardware companies to
    assure that our DVD-RAM Drives and accessories will interface smoothly and
    efficiently - now and in the future. Some of these development partners are
    listed here.

    Adaptec SCSI Controller Cards
    AdLib Publishing Systems Inc. eDocument Distribution Software
    ADS Technologies Inc. Kits for Converting VHS Tape to DVD-R/RW formats
    Apple Computer DVD Studio Pro support for Panasonic DVDBurners
    ASACA DVD-RAM / R Jukebox
    ASTARTE GmbH DVD Authoring Tools for DVD Video Production
    ATI DVD/MPEG-2 Decoder Cards
    Avid Technology, Inc. DVD Publishing & Editing Systems for Video, Audio and
    Multimedia Professionals
    Bio-logic Systems Corp. Medical Electrodiagnostic Systems
    California DVD DVD Video Production
    Canopus Corporation MPEG-2 Real-time Archiving & Mastering
    Centura-Software Corp Linux Embedded Database Solution with DVD-RAM
    Chess Archiving Technology DVD-RAM Jukebox
    Columbia Data Data Management Software
    Compaq Computer Corporation DVD-RAM drive option with Presario 7000 Series
    desktop PCs, Compaq Deskpro Workstations and Compaq
    Professional Workstations
    CyberLink Corporation MPEG-2 Video Capture, Editing, Production, and Playback
    Solutions for DVD-RAM
    Cypress Semiconductor USB 2.0 Solutions for DVD-RAM/R Burners
    Daikin U.S. Comtec Laboratories DVD Authoring Software
    Dantz Development Corp. Backup Software
    Dazzle Inc. MPEG Digital Video Solutions for DVD-RAM
    Dictaphone Corporation Communications Recording Systems (CRS)
    Digigami Software-based MPEG Encoders
    DISC®, Inc. Network-Attached Storage (NAS) Server with DVD-RAM
    DV Studio Technologies MPEG-2 Encoding Hardware and Software
    Enhanced Software Technologies, Inc. Linux Backup Software for DVD-RAM
    ESBuy.com Inc USB 2.0 Solutions for DVD-RAM
    eSystems, Inc. Data Mining Software for DVD-RAM
    Fantom Drives DVD-RAM Drives & Media
    Gateway, Inc. Gateway 700XL
    GEAR Software, Inc. Unix and DVD Content Development Software
    HEURIS DVD VR Software
    Hbourne Group DVD/MPEG-2 Authoring Systems
    Host Interface International, Inc. Back-up/restore software
    IMR, Inc. Information Asset Management Software
    I-O Data Device USA, Inc. SCSI-IDE Converter Boards for Panasonic DVDBurners
    Indigita Corporation FireWire Bridge Board for DVD-RAM
    Innovacom DVD/MPEG-2 Authoring Systems
    In-System Design Inc. USB 2.0 Bridge for DVD-RAM
    INTEC America DVD-Video Authoring Software
    InterVideo Inc. DVD and MPEG-2 video editing, production and playback
    solutions
    Japan Personal Computer Co., Ltd SCSI-IDE Bridge Boards for Panasonic
    DVDBurners
    KOM Inc. Storage Management Software
    LaCie DVD-RAM Drives & Media
    LaserFiche Document Management/Retrieval Solutions
    Ligos Technology Real-time MPEG-2 Encoder
    Luminex Software DVD MULTI Data Publishing, Distribution and Archiving
    Solutions for UNIX and Linux Systems
    MedioStream, Inc. DVD Editing, Authoring and Burning Software
    MGI Software Corporation Video Editing and DVD authoring for DVD-RAM/R Drives
    Microlite Corporation Linux, Unix Backup/Recovery Software
    Microsoft Corporation Windows® 2000
    Mission Critical Linux, Inc. PowerQuest Corporation and Mission Critical
    Linux, Inc. Announce Joint Development Effort
    NTI (NewTech Infosystems, Inc.) DVD Recording & Backup Software
    NovaStor Corporation Back-up/Recovery Software
    Optodisc Technology Corporation DVD-RAM Media, DVD-RW Media and DVD-R Media
    OTG Software DVD-RAM Jukebox Windows NT Storage Software
    Plasmon Plc DVD-RAM / DVD-R Jukebox
    Panasonic BTSC DVD Authoring System
    Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company DVD-RAM Video Recorder/Player
    Panasonic Corporate Systems Company Video Coaching System
    Pegasus Disk Technologies Storage Management Software for DVD-RAM
    PE Logic SCSI Controller Cards
    Pinnacle Systems, Inc. DVD Authoring Systems
    Pixela Corporation USB 2.0 / ATAPI Bridge Board for DVD-RAM
    Plexus O/SM Software
    Polywell computers Inc. DVD-RAM Workstations
    Portlock Software DVD Burning Software
    PowerFile, Inc. DVDBurner - Library/Jukebox
    PowerQuest Corporation PowerQuest Adds Support for Panasonic DVD-RAM/R Drive's
    Rewritable Technology with Special Version of Drive Image Pro
    Prassi Software Software
    Prosoft Engineering, Inc. Management Utility Software for Macintosh® Systems
    QPS Inc. FireWire, USB, IDE/ATAPI DVD-RAM/R Drives
    Ricoh Silicon Valley, Inc. eCabinet Information Appliance with DVD-RAM
    SCM Microsystems, Inc. USB - SCSI Converter
    Sharp Corporation Notebook PC with DVD-RAM / DVD-R / DVD-RW
    Sherlock Systems, Inc. DVDBurner Drives and Workstations
    Sigma Designs DVD-RAM Video Recorder
    Smart Storage Storage Management Software
    Software Architects, Inc. Windows and Mac OS Utility Software for DVD-RAM/R
    Drives
    Sonic Solutions DVD Publishing & Editing Systems for Video, Audio and
    Multimedia Professionals
    Sonsub Inc. Video Survey Systems with DVD-RAM
    SuSE Linux Linux 2.4 Support for Panasonic 4.7GB DVD-RAM Drive
    Spruce Technologies, Inc. DVD Encoding and Authoring System
    TOLIS Group, Inc. Linux/Unix Data Backup Software for Panasonic DVDBurners
    Total Recall Data Recovery, Inc. Macintosh Backup/Recovery Utility
    Tracer Technologies Inc. Linux and Unix Software for DVD-RAM
    Ulead Systems Inc Video Editing, Image Editing and DVD Authoring Software
    U.S. Design Corporation Linux, Windows NT/2000, Tru64 Unix, Red Hat Linux, Sun
    Solaris and Compaq OpenVMS NAS and SAN Software Solutions for DVD-RAM/DVD-R
    VERITAS Software Corporation Backup/Recovery Software
    VITEC Multimedia Video Production Software
    VOB Information Systems, Inc. UDF Storage Software for DVD-RAM
    Wired, Inc. Mac MPEG-2 / DVD Playback Card
    Young Minds, Inc. DVD-RAM / R Recording Solutions for UNIX, NT and Linux
    More Partners Additional DVD-RAM Applications
     
    Phil Leonard, Nov 23, 2003
    #14
  15. John

    luminos Guest

    You should revise your list. Dazzle, for example, no longer exists.
     
    luminos, Nov 23, 2003
    #15
  16. John

    Phil Leonard Guest

    Not my list, it's Panasonic's, or linked from their site, anyway.
     
    Phil Leonard, Nov 23, 2003
    #16
  17. John

    John Guest

    snip

    The compatibility of DVD RAM discs with the majority of DVD players is an
    issue that is far from resolved. For example, if I own a Panasonic DVD
    recorder and record a TV program on a DVD RAM disc, I can't play this disc
    back on about 90% of the DVD players that are on the market. Even if I have
    a major brand of DVD player, such as a Sony or a Philips, a DVD RAM disc is
    not going to be compatible. So the compatability of DVD RAM discs with other
    DVD players needs to be sorted out. Why is DVD RAM compatible with no more
    than 10% of the DVD players on the market? Surely it makes sense for Sony
    and Philips, for example, to have DVD players that will play back DVD-R,
    DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW and DVD RAM. Both Sony and Philips have produced DVD
    recorders and players that will play back DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, and DVD+RW,
    but they have excluded DVD-RAM.

    Equally, has Panasonic yet produced a DVD player and / or recorder that will
    play back ALL these formats? If not, why not? The consumer is the loser in
    this ridiculous battle between the giants of the electronics industry. Sony
    has complicated the situation even further by producing a DVD recorder that
    uses a cut down version of the DVD+RW system because post recording editing,
    such as inserting new chapters, can't be done. This is a pity because IMHO
    the +RW system is the best by far of the ones on the market at present.

    Incidentally, are there any new formats being worked on in addition to the 5
    referred to above?

    John
     
    John, Nov 24, 2003
    #17
  18. John

    Phil Leonard Guest

    I think that Matsushita requires a license fee. And since you mention Sony, I
    think that is why nobody else has taken on producing the Sony MD or MD
    recorders.

    But you make a lot of good points in your questions. I could never understand
    why there are so many formats in the first place. But I have no real answers
    here for you. I can only say that DVD-R is cheap enough for me not to care how
    many I use or give away. RW for me is simply for moving from my recorder to my
    PC, so compatibility is only important to me within those two items. But I can
    see the problem.
    Blue Laser

    TDK ANNOUNCES 23.3GB BLUE LASER DISC FOR THE SONY PROFESSIONAL OPTICAL DISC
    RECORDING SYSTEM
     
    Phil Leonard, Nov 24, 2003
    #18
  19. John

    PhoNge Guest

    Hi,

    I am using RDR-GX7 since available on the market. I agree that function of
    RDR-GX7 on DVD+RW is limited. However editing in DVD-RW (VR mode) disc is
    aweson. You may say that DVD-RW (VR mode) is similar to DVD-RAM which can
    play in few DVD player. Now DVD-RAM and DVD (VR mode) player are slowly
    available in japan market. I prefer to have original record list and play
    list which is defined by user.

    What I did in GX7 is record video clip on VR mode. Then edit the scene of my
    son, keep them in memory and burn on cheap DVD-R disc and send to his grand
    parent. This way is cheap and cost effective. My parent DVD player can read
    all kind of disc even MP3 and window media format. So I can choose any disc.

    Now 3 new model (Sony) with hugh hard disk (250GB) are available on the
    market but non of them include i-link input ;-(

    Though DVD+RW which seem to be better (perhaps I have the other one), most
    of vendors are keep going with DVD (-RW) editing trend so far in japan. Any
    way I am happy with what I want have now ;-)

    Rgds,

    PN
     
    PhoNge, Nov 25, 2003
    #19
  20. John

    John Guest

    snip
    There is a useful comparison of the differences between the DVD plus RW
    format and the DVD minus RW format on the dvdplusrw site:

    http://www.dvdplusrw.org/Article.asp?mid=0&sid=3&aid=11

    This site says that, with the +R and +RW format,

    DVD+R/+RW recordings are always DVD-Video compatible
    DVD+RW recorders can divide a recording into multiple titles afterwards
    DVD+RW recorders can add chapter markers at any given point afterwards
    DVD+RW recorders can hide-out chapters to "edit" your recordings afterwards
    DVD+RW recordings can always be added anywhere on a disc
    DVD+RW recordings do not need to be finalised
    DVD+R/+RW discs always contain a picture menu that is updated automatically
    after each recording
    DVD+R/+RW discs are interchangeable between recorders
    DVD+RW recordings can be edited on a PC
    DVD+R/+RW recordings always use variable bit rate
    DVD+R/+RW recorders always offer long recording times

    The conclusions about the DVD minus R and minus RW format are as follows:

    If you want to produce a "compatible" disc using a DVD-R/-RW recorder...

    ....you have to decide up front if you want to make a DVD-Video compatible
    disc, there's no way to convert a standard recording into DVD-Video format
    afterwards
    ....you cannot divide a recording into multiple titles afterwards
    ....you cannot add chapter stops at any give point afterwards
    ....you cannot hide-out chapters to perform simple editing on your recordings
    on the disc
    ....you can only start a new recording at the end of the disc, you cannot
    overwrite recordings
    ....you have to wait for a time consuming finalization process to complete
    before the disc is compatible, even on rewritable DVD-RW discs
    ....you cannot always have a nice menu screen with index pictures to be
    enclosed on the disc that is updated automatically after each recording is
    finished
    ....you cannot record additional material on a disc that was recorded in a
    different brand of recorder, or even some models of the same brand
    ....you cannot edit your recordings using a PC on the same disc
    ....you sometimes have a lesser picture quality due to the absence of
    intelligent Variable Bit Rate encoding (some models)
    ....you sometimes have a recording time that is limited to 2 hours per disc
    side on DVD-RW discs (some models)

    As you can see, the DVD-R/-RW is not very suitable for the application of
    recording DVD discs that can be played in any DVD-Video player. From this
    summary, it will become clear that there is not a single advantage of
    choosing a DVD-R/-RW video recorder over a DVD+R/+RW video recorder if you
    want to make DVD-Video compatible discs.
     
    John, Nov 26, 2003
    #20
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