[Maxxum 7D] -shutter lag

Discussion in 'Digital SLR' started by Alan Browne, Mar 10, 2005.

  1. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    I was shooting my pickup volleyball gang last night ( I sprained my
    ankle a few weeks ago, it's not healed yet, so... )

    I had shot this group (and other sports) several times and with my
    Maxxum 9 I had a good feeling for the timing. The shutter lag on the 9
    is about 50 - 55ms.

    With the Maxxum 7D, the delay seems a bit longer (not really perceptible
    in human terms) but the results were well behind the play. It's hard to
    quantify without instrumentation, but I would guess that it's closer to
    100ms for the Maxxum 7D.

    (I was shooting manual focus, manual exp., A/S was off).

    Anyone else?

    Cheers,
    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Mar 10, 2005
    #1
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  2. Alan Browne

    Owamanga Guest

    You can measure shutter lag using a turntable that revolves at a known
    speed, put a white marker on it and fire when the marker is at
    12'o-clock. Take a look at the photo to see how much rotation occurred
    between the button press and the image capture. Grab calculator and do
    some math...

    Another way is to run a digital stopwatch and fire it at a known point
    (say 10 seconds). Because you are predicting the start point, your
    reaction times don't really matter.

    Actually, scrap that and use this website (hmm, it's calibrated to
    capture lag up to 2seconds! - maybe the turntable would be better...)
    http://www.shooting-digital.com/columns/schwartz/shutter_release_test/default.asp
     
    Owamanga, Mar 10, 2005
    #2
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  3. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    Owamanga wrote:

    Doh! I'll try that at 78 RPM (468°/sec) I should get a fairly accurate
    measure. I'll do a few on film with the Max 9 as well. (Hmm, I think
    my turntable only does 33 and 45 ... should still be pretty good at 45).

    Thanks!!

    Cheers,
    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Mar 10, 2005
    #3
  4. Alan Browne

    stator Guest

    I took a few shots of my son throwing snowballs last week. To capture
    the snowball going through the air and so it stood out in the shot, I
    had to wait until the snowball had my neighbors red brick as the
    backdrop. I was shooting at iso 1600 and didn't notice any lag. Here
    is a sample of what I mean.

    http://mikmaq.250free.com/snowball.jpg

    Joe
     
    stator, Mar 10, 2005
    #4
  5. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    example: http://www.aliasimages.com/images/PICT0513a.jpg

    From the spreadsheet.

    45 RPM
    Phot Angle Time (ms)
    511 53 196
    512 58 215
    513 57.5 213
    514 53 196
    515 60 222
    516 60 222

    Average 211 (ms)... manual focus, manual exposure, shutter
    depressed halfway beofore release.

    This SUCKS.

    Cheers,
    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Mar 10, 2005
    #5
  6. Alan Browne

    eawckyegcy Guest

    www.google.com: "personal equation" measurement

    Did you remove your reflex action time? A better setup might be to rig
    the camera to take a picture when a beam of light is broken: just drop
    something through the beam and some simple arithmetic gives you the
    delay.
     
    eawckyegcy, Mar 10, 2005
    #6
  7. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    Thanks. (I love the trail of snow on that!).

    More scientifically, I followed Owamanga's suggestion and shot 6 frames
    of a turntable at 45 RPM. Repeated post text follows:

    example: http://www.aliasimages.com/images/PICT0513a.jpg

    From the spreadsheet.

    45 RPM.
    Phot Angle Time (ms)
    511 53 196
    512 58 215
    513 57.5 213
    514 53 196
    515 60 222
    516 60 222

    Average 211 (ms)... manual focus, manual exposure, shutter
    depressed halfway beofore release.

    This SUCKS.

    Cheers,
    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Mar 10, 2005
    #7
  8. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    I don't have the equipment for that. You'll just have to go by my
    sighted firings of a near depressed shutter (and the low variance).
    Since I'm anticipating the crossing of the tapes, finger depressed
    already through most of the closing range, I doubt the human delay here
    is more than 25ms.

    (In reflex testing, the subject sees a light come on, so he can't
    anticipate. I can, 'cause I can see the tape approaching the reference
    tape).

    Cheers,
    Alan.
     
    Alan Browne, Mar 10, 2005
    #8
  9. Alan Browne

    Owamanga Guest

    It's not a simple reflex time (230ms I read somewhere, in a test where
    someone responds to a expected, but unpredictable trigger), Alan was
    able to predict exactly when the shutter press was needed, so any
    human error will be very small. Off the top of my head, I can't think
    how to measure this (Alan will do film tests on other cameras).

    Whatever the time is, it's real life. Alan + Camera = 211ms and that
    sucks.
     
    Owamanga, Mar 10, 2005
    #9
  10. I just found this by goolging:

    From http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/MAX7/D7A12.HTM

    "Average (good) shutter response and cycle times. The word that comes to
    mind when thinking about the Konica Minolta Maxxum 7D's speed is
    "average." - But that's not a bad thing, given the field it's playing
    in. Full-autofocus shutter lag is actually faster than most d-SLRs, at
    about 0.27 second, although its manual focus lag is only slightly better
    than the full-autofocus times."

    You'll probably learn to compensate slightly, but you're right, it kinda
    sucks.
     
    Brian C. Baird, Mar 10, 2005
    #10
  11. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    Is it just me, or does that clock stop briefly as it passes through 0?
    (Netscape 7.2).

    With that one, I'm getting a little over 0.1 sec... but there seems to
    be a delay at 0 when it passes through (may no mean anything if the
    needle 'catches' up at its next 'tick' position.

    Maybe I should repeat the turntable test at 33, give me a cleaner hit at
    the start point. (Of course I've put away the turntable).

    Cheers,
    Alan.
     
    Alan Browne, Mar 10, 2005
    #11
  12. Or break the beam with a cardboard tab taped to the outside edge of your
    record. (on the turntable)
     
    William Graham, Mar 10, 2005
    #12
  13. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    Alan Browne, Mar 10, 2005
    #13
  14. Alan Browne

    Paul Bielec Guest

    Not just you, the needle seems to be freezing briefly at 0.
    Remainds me when I had to demonstrate to a customer that our controller
    trips the engine within 40 or 50 ms after a specific condition is met.
     
    Paul Bielec, Mar 10, 2005
    #14
  15. Yes. I have trouble stopping the arrow within .1 seconds of straight
    up....Also, I perceive a small delay in my computer's reaction time. (the
    time between when I click the mouse pointer, and when the arrow stops.)
    Of course, with any camera, regardless of how fast it is, one's own
    reaction time is going to be a factor, so perhaps it doesn't matter, and
    your measurement should include that time anyway.......
     
    William Graham, Mar 10, 2005
    #15
  16. Alan Browne

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    Try using the 1 at the bottom as the firing point rather than the 0 at the
    top. It doesn't stop there.

    With my D70 I was consistently hitting what looks like the first "notch"
    after the start point, 0.05 I guess. But I'm not sure how valid the
    test is, given the human element; I also found that I had to consciously
    try *not* to predict the firing moment well enough to lead it and hit the
    needle right on the 1, which is more a test of my compensation for shutter
    lag than of shutter lag itself.

    I guess the real test would be having some way to auto-trigger the shutter
    at the "correct" moment.
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Mar 10, 2005
    #16
  17. Alan Browne

    Paul Bielec Guest

    The simplest way to do test would be to have a mechanical release that
    triggers at the same time the camera shutter button and a very precise
    timer. Then all you need is checking the picture for the time it captured.
     
    Paul Bielec, Mar 10, 2005
    #17
  18. Alan Browne

    eawckyegcy Guest

    http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm

    190ms, increases with age, men are better than women, etc.
    There are computational latencies even when "predicting". Just the
    time to visual stimulus (ie, physical reality -> brain) is something
    like 20-40ms (op. cit). Sound may be better, 8-10ms; can one make the
    turntable click?
    Simple computer program. A quick-and-dirty one I just wrote gave me
    about 50ms or so after I "locked onto" the 1s stimulus (I don't trust
    the result for many reasons though.) Many "reaction time" testers are
    online, though none of them do this particular test. www.google.com:
    "serial reaction test" -- many tests in the literature, none like this
    (probably missed it). The CogSci people are more interested in
    recognition stuff, trying to reverse engineer the algorithms in the
    brain by timing, until fMRI came along (which measures something like
    power consumption).
    Yeah, well, but does Alan suck, or does the camera suck? ;-)
     
    eawckyegcy, Mar 11, 2005
    #18
  19. Alan Browne

    Patco Guest

    This site gives lag times in the camera reviews.
    May be of interest to you if you haven't already seen it:
    http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/MAX7/D7A7.HTM
     
    Patco, Mar 11, 2005
    #19
  20. Alan Browne

    Peter Chant Guest

    Or if you have some electronic kit measure the time taken from triggering
    the camera with electronic cable release until when the short apears on the
    hot shoe.

    Pete
     
    Peter Chant, Mar 11, 2005
    #20
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