Moon shots

Discussion in 'Digital SLR' started by Sheldon, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. Sheldon

    Sheldon Guest

    Took some shots of the moon last night. Geez, I never realized how bright
    it is. My exposures were way up there. (500mm mirror lens on D70.) I
    started with a tripod, but the shutter speeds got up so high I don't think I
    needed it. I'm also at 8000' with very little light from the city.

    Sheldon, Feb 26, 2005
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  2. Sheldon

    Bubbabob Guest

    It's about a bright as an asphalt driveway in sunlight. However, realistic
    photos of it look too dark. We humans seem to like to think that the moon
    is a white (almost) object, when in fact it is quite dark.
    Bubbabob, Feb 26, 2005
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  3. Sheldon

    dylan Guest

    You would think it was lit by the sun wouldn't you ;o)
    dylan, Feb 26, 2005
  4. Sheldon

    Sheldon Guest

    Good point. The best shots are a bit on the dark side. I can even see the
    "green cheese". :)
    Sheldon, Feb 27, 2005
  5. Sheldon

    Sheldon Guest

    Sheldon, Feb 27, 2005
  6. Sheldon

    zeitgeist Guest

    The moon is exposed by the sun, bright sunny day exposure rule applies.
    zeitgeist, Feb 28, 2005
  7. Sheldon

    JPS Guest

    In message <>,
    If you shoot in RAW mode, bracket exposures that flirt with clipping the
    RAW data (they will clip the histogram, even if the RAW data isn't
    clipped), for the recorded exposure. Your initial capture with a RAW
    file has no need to match the desired tones upon output; you can do that
    trivially, later in software. One thing to keep in mind is that
    darkening an exposure in software is never harmful to image quality;
    only brightening can be.

    Never be afraid of going to a higher ISO to maintain the shutter speed
    and aperture you want, to do this high exposure. It is a falsehood,
    this "common wisdom", that higher ISO simply equals higher noise. That
    is only true when exposure compensation, or lack thereof, is the same
    for all ISOs:

    clean noisy
    ISO 100 200 400 800
    SS 800 800 800 800
    FS f4 f5.6 f8 f11
    EC 0 0 0 0


    clean noisy
    ISO 100 200 400 800
    SS 800 1600 3200 6400
    FS f4 f4 f4 f4
    EC 0 0 0 0

    When absolute exposure remains the same, the noise does not increase,
    but rather, *DECREASES* with higher ISO (because the noise and signal
    are less quantized):

    noisy clean
    ISO 100 200 400 800
    SS 3200 3200 3200 3200
    FS f4 f4 f4 f4
    EC -2 -1 0 +1

    Of course, this is all assuming that no desired detail is clipped in the
    RAW data. It would really be nice if the camera had an option to
    bracket ISO automatically in manual (aperture and shutter speed)
    exposure mode.
    JPS, Mar 1, 2005
  8. Sheldon

    JPS Guest

    In message <>,
    Sure, if you want a moon whose highlights reach level 300 out of 4000+
    possible RAW levels.
    JPS, Mar 1, 2005
  9. I really wish I could set aperture and shutter speed (or a range of
    apertures and shutter speeds, or aperture and a range of shutter
    speeds, or shutter speed and a range of apertures) and have my
    camera manipulate ISO to make it come out right.
    Ben Rosengart, Mar 1, 2005
  10. Sheldon

    Sheldon Guest

    I think you're just about right on. Obviously I bracketed a lot, and the
    best shots were at around f 8 (It's a mirror 500 locked in at f 8) with a
    shutter speed of around 400 at ISO 200. Sunny 16 would translate to f 16 at
    200. Can't get much closer than that.
    Sheldon, Mar 1, 2005
  11. Sheldon

    JPS Guest

    In message <>,
    I really wish that digital cameras had come out back in the mid-80's;
    then we'd probably have something like "exposureBASIC(TM)", where we
    could program our own modes.

    The whole mentality of technology has become really dumbed down from a
    user standpoint.

    JPS, Mar 1, 2005
  12. Sheldon

    Alan Browne Guest

    Alan Browne, Mar 1, 2005
  13. Why sigh?
    Ben Rosengart, Mar 1, 2005
  14. Sheldon

    Alan Browne Guest

    Stop depending on the camera s/w to do things for you. You should develop an
    eye and a mental process that is always considering the light and how your
    subjects can be exposed to get a specific result. For most scenes (in natural
    or available light) there are a range of expsosures that will portray the
    subject differently. No camera can decide how a particular subject should be

    Otherwise put your camera in fully auto and let it do everything for you and you
    can wonder why the exposure is okay but not great; or often enough, just plain
    wrong. _you_ should be selecting the exposure to arrive at some expression of
    the subject in that light.

    Alan Browne, Mar 1, 2005
  15. Of shutter speed, aperture, and ISO, ISO has the least effect on the
    look of the image. And yet, every single "creative mode" (P, A, S, M)
    on the 20D is effectively "ISO priority".

    For a given exposure value, you can set the aperture constant while
    the shutter speed floats, or vice versa; but you cannot set both
    constant while the ISO floats.

    I'm talking about more control, not less, so stop that knee jerking.
    Yes, I know, Mother ...
    Ben Rosengart, Mar 1, 2005
  16. Sheldon

    Owamanga Guest

    I agree, from what I saw in your original post it was obvious you
    wanted to specify the aperture to artistically control DOF and at the
    same time specify the shutter speed to artistically control the amount
    of motion captured. The only thing left to move is ISO. This is *more*
    control than is offered in any of the priority modes.

    Apparently the D70 can do this (to some extent at least), but I've
    never used that feature because after only 3 stops you are into some
    seriously noisy ISO's. Compare this to around 18 stops in shutter
    speed between 30secs and 1/8000th, and around 4.5 stops on the
    Owamanga, Mar 1, 2005
  17. Sheldon

    Alan Browne Guest

    As soon as you stated:

    "(or a range of apertures and shutter speeds,
    or aperture and a range of shutter speeds,
    or shutter speed and a range of apertures)"

    you 3 or two variables floating. That prompted my reply as that is no different
    than "full auto" or "P" in an SLR.

    I understand what you mean about "ISO priority" as being a film paradigm that
    you wish to escape. What you are getting around to is "composition priority" (S
    + A locked, ISO variable), but bear also in mind that the ISO settings on some
    DSLR cameras is in full stops (20D). (On others, D70, it is in 1/3 stops). I
    suppose it would not be that big a deal to make the 20D successor 1/3 stops of
    ISO, or for that matter stepless down as far as the system allows.

    Alan Browne, Mar 1, 2005
  18. That's true. I usually don't see too much difference between 1/250,
    1/500, 1/1000, for example. So I can see situations where I'd want
    to set a small range of shutter speeds. As Owamonga pointed out,
    ISO alone doesn't give you very many stops.
    Which are different from each other on the 20D at least ... ISO
    doesn't float in P mode (nor will the camera turn on flash).

    In P or auto mode, when your camera wants more light, how does it
    decide whether to open up, decrease shutter speed, or raise ISO?
    I don't know the answer for my camera, and I don't think it's
    documented in the manual. Wouldn't it be cool if you could tell
    your camera how to make those decisions? JPS had it right with
    his quip about "CameraBASIC".
    Yes, exactly so. "Composition priority" is a nice name for it --
    your coinage?
    I wonder whether this could _all_ be done with a firmware upgrade.
    Ben Rosengart, Mar 1, 2005
  19. Sheldon

    Owamanga Guest

    Why not? Firmware can do anything that's not limited in some way by
    the hardware, including the space needed to store the firmware.

    Examples of things firmware can do:

    All the amazin' stuff the camera does already.

    Examples of things firmware can't do:

    Hover mode. (Where the camera floats effortlessly in the air to
    prevent camera shake).

    Say cheese mode. (Where the camera says 'SAY CHEESE' just after you
    press the button, but before the picture gets taken - the 20D would
    need a forward-facing loud speaker).
    Owamanga, Mar 1, 2005
  20. As was pointed out by Oswanga, the D70 has an auto ISO feature.

    In the auto exposure modes, it will kick in and boost the sensitivity
    (which is ISO 200 by default in these modes) when one reaches the
    limits of the shutter speed, or aperture, or a combination of both,
    depending on the mode.

    The only information the user gets from the camera though, is that the
    auto ISO feature is activated. It doesn't tell you when it's changing
    the sensitivity or by how much.

    The only way to use auto ISO the way you're describing is to shoot
    manually and deliberately underexpose the shot.

    I can't really see ever using it unless I'm caught without a tripod,
    the light is fading fast, the photo ops are coming fast and furious,
    and I don't care what the photos end up looking like as long as I get
    Brett Wheeler, Mar 1, 2005
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