New Foveon sensor for digital camcorders

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by Jorge Prediguez, Jun 29, 2004.

  1. Foveon is working on a new sensor for video cameras. This will
    guarantee the best video quality ever. Sigma will be releasing the
    first video camera with this record breaking technology.
     
    Jorge Prediguez, Jun 29, 2004
    #1
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  2. Sounds like a broken record to me, too.
     
    this old user, Jun 29, 2004
    #2
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  3. They don't need a new sensor. <http://www.foveon.com/faq_oem.html>
    question 4: "Can Foveon X3 direct image sensors be used for video?".

    This won't be "the best video quality ever", though it would offer
    much of the advantage of a 3-chip camera in a much cheaper package.
     
    Stephen H. Westin, Jun 29, 2004
    #3
  4. Jorge Prediguez

    PTRAVEL Guest

    Actually, it wouldn't -- it's primary advantage would be size and weight.
    3-chip video cameras offer exceptional color reproduction because dichroic
    prisms split the light into primary colors, each of which is directed to a
    monochrome sensor. The result is high color accuracy without interpolation
    or approximation, as well as excellent low-light performance, as there is no
    light loss involved, except that small amount attributable to the prism.
    Foven chips use silicon like a filter -- color is determined based on the
    depth of penetration of photons into a silicon substrate. Color accuracy is
    dependent on interpolation and, as with any filter, there is light loss.

    A Foven-based camcorder might be an improvement, possibly even a dramatic
    improvement, over single-CCD camcorders, assuming the sensor was of
    sufficient size. No Foveon-based camcorder will produce results equivalent
    to a good 3-CCD prosumer unit, e.g. VX2000, GL2 or XL1, absent significant
    improvements in the underlying technology.
     
    PTRAVEL, Jun 29, 2004
    #4
  5. Jorge Prediguez

    Alex A. Guest

    is this the infamous orville again?

    i'm still not convinced of buying anything named 'sigma' since i always
    associate it with a bad experience with a similarly named automobile.
    and with all this foveon this and that spamming, isn't it going to give that
    manufacturer, let alone that camera, negative outlooks rather than getting
    people to try it for themselves?

    meh, probably talking to a brick wall anyway.
     
    Alex A., Jun 30, 2004
    #5
  6. When he said the sensors, (which are entirely passive) in other cameras
    cause cancer, he lost all creditability with me............The only way they
    could do that is if you tore them out of the camera and ate them......And
    even then.......
     
    William Graham, Jun 30, 2004
    #6
  7. All that work for a low resolution medium like TV???
     
    Darrell Larose, Jun 30, 2004
    #7
  8. Jorge Prediguez

    print_maker Guest

    please link to your sources... or otherwise you are just spouting rumors
     
    print_maker, Jun 30, 2004
    #8
  9. Jorge Prediguez

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    He can't even spell George correctly.

     
    Gymmy Bob, Jun 30, 2004
    #9
  10. C'mon George...
     
    Randall Ainsworth, Jun 30, 2004
    #10
  11. Crawl back to R.P.D. where you belong, you pathetic attention whore.
    It's bad enough when Brette blathers about his D60; your
    obsessive/compulsive Foveon spew is even further off topic and is most
    unwelcome. This is a FILM oriented group, and I doubt anyone here wants
    to read about Sigma videocameras or the sensors within.

    -Greg
     
    Greg Campbell, Jun 30, 2004
    #11
  12. Jorge Prediguez

    Alfred Molon Guest

    As a side question: if full colour information in each pixel is not so
    important (as has been repeated again and again here), why do higher end
    camcorders use three CCDs and a prism to achieve it ?
     
    Alfred Molon, Jun 30, 2004
    #12
  13. It is all about trade-offs. If you can get full color information without
    any loss in resolution, with same sensitivity and signal to noise ratio,
    and in a convenient package, it is a better deal than a sensor that provides
    a lower color resolution.

    For video cameras, the resolution is more or less fixed, and compared to
    the overall size of a (professional) video camera, using three sensors
    is no big deal. I don't know about sensitivity issues. With analog video
    cameras, you don't really want to do any complicated bayer pattern
    image reconstruction. Maybe bayer pattern sensors make sense for HDTV
    video cameras.

    For photo cameras, bayer pattern sensors provide (at the moment) the best
    trade-off in most cases.
     
    Philip Homburg, Jun 30, 2004
    #13
  14. SNIP
    It has been explained several times as well ;-)

    Camcorders are limited in the number of pixels they can output, given the
    bandwidth limits of the various video signals. The only improvement
    possible, and given the limited image size not prohibitively expensive and
    heavy, is color resolution (however little benefit it brings).

    There are practical limits to increases in zoom range or low light
    capability, so if one seeks to differentiate the product offering from
    cheaper models in the line-up, slightly more accurate color quantization is
    basically all that's left to do.

    Digital still cameras are not bound as strictly to maximum image size in
    pixels, so one can make a trade-off between fewer pixels with higher color
    accuracy than the human eye can see in normal output, or adding more
    sensors/pixels that increase luminance resolution AND improves color
    accuracy, at the expense of higher storage size, lower capture frequency and
    higher cost. Increasing the number of sensors is the avenue chosen by most,
    also because the Bayer CFA sensor fabrication process is very mature and
    relatively low cost due to high yield.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Jun 30, 2004
    #14
  15. The new Foveon P&S due out soon is rumored to have better video
    quality than any consumer video device, and rivlas 3 chip pro designs.
    Not a bad deal for a $300 pocket P&S. It is also rumor to be able to
    capture full size 4.5MP still shots while it is shooting video.
     
    Georgette Preddy, Jun 30, 2004
    #15
  16. Jorge Prediguez

    mheffels Guest

    So, you are saying that companies like Panavision, Arri, Kinetta and
    Thomson are wrong using a one-chip for their high-end e-Cine camera's?
    Interesting :)

    cheers

    -martin-
     
    mheffels, Jun 30, 2004
    #16
  17. Jorge Prediguez

    adm Guest

    Rumoured by you.
     
    adm, Jun 30, 2004
    #17
  18. SNIP
    You are wrong, again, as usual.

    It is a Polaroid P&S, and captures 1440 x 1080 pixels (1.56 MP):
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0406/04062102foveonf19.asp
    This will, in addition to still images, produce video clip capture at VGA
    (!) resolution.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Jun 30, 2004
    #18
  19. Jorge Prediguez

    Leonard Guest

    Perhaps because requirements for video are somewhat different than for
    stills.

    For example, my TV displays at 35dpi. That's utterly unacceptable for
    a print but seems to work fine on the telly. In fact I've looked at big
    expensive TVs in shops that are probably less than 20dpi and it's
    surprising how close a viewing distance you can use before the lack of
    resolution becomes intrusive. I can't explain why this should be, but
    it suggests that something different is going on with motion pictures
    than static ones, and assumptions about quality requirements made for
    one should not be carried over to the other.

    Alternatively it may just be a marketing phenomenon. Note that most
    video delivery systems (including analog PAL,NTSC, digital MPEG-1,2)
    have reduced chroma resolution.

    - Len
     
    Leonard, Jun 30, 2004
    #19
  20. Jorge Prediguez

    PTRAVEL Guest

    "Full color information" is a meaningless phrase. All camcorder sensors
    provide full color information. What varies is how they do it.

    I've described, in this thread, why a Foveon chip-equipped camcorder will
    not produce as good an image as a 3-ccd camcorder.
     
    PTRAVEL, Jun 30, 2004
    #20
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