New Sound Page

Discussion in 'Video Cameras' started by Tony Morgan, Nov 16, 2003.

  1. True. My thought was whether it might be worth terminating just short
    of the camera, using a DI box backwards :)

    Or whether 99% of the noise was likely to be found in the few inches
    of unbalanced connection approaching the camera?
     
    Laurence Payne, Dec 8, 2003
    #61
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  2. Tony Morgan

    Jerry. Guest

    Bully for you, what else do you do in your spare time the group might be
    intrested in ?!...
    <snip Mr Morgan's waffle...>

    But it is not academic, if you need to run long mic cables (possibly near
    sources of 'interference'), the last few inches into the camera is the least
    of the possible issues as suggested by Darcy in reply to Laurence's question
    above.

    There are products on the market that allow balanced mic's to be used with
    cameras that only have un-balanced audio.
     
    Jerry., Dec 8, 2003
    #62
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  3. Tony Morgan

    Tony Morgan Guest

    I do. But then you think otherwise.
    I believe he knows a little more than you, so I seek confirmation of
    that.
    I hope Barry doesn't have to fit wireless mics to his ponies :)
    They're supposed to be at the Friends meeting with the rest of the
    company on Thursday evening, so I'll say hello in person on your behalf.
     
    Tony Morgan, Dec 9, 2003
    #63
  4. Tony Morgan

    Tony Morgan Guest

    It might help but I doubt it. You could well be introducing other
    issues. The frequency responses is unlikely to be exactly flat.
    Connected via a console allows correction but I draw the line of
    carrying more than a minimum of kit around. And anyway, most noise
    problems with domestic camcorders arise from the AGC kicking in at quiet
    periods - that wouldn't change.
    I thought that most noise (with the exception of on-camcorder mic noise)
    was introduced by the cable - especially where there are mains runs in
    the vicinity, and thyristor control of mains is the pits. Not many years
    ago I saw a spectrum analyser connected to the mains via a 50Hz notch
    filter and the result was scary :)
    That's why everything in my office is connected via a couple of Belkin
    filter/protection boxes.
     
    Tony Morgan, Dec 9, 2003
    #64
  5. OK. That was an entertaining (though unresolved ) diversion. :)
    Gracious as ever, Tony :)
    If we're playing that game, I guess my 25+ years in pro theatre trumps
    his 15. But that's a silly game.

    You're going to try to make him confirm that 40 channels is a standard
    size for a theatre sound board, and that most stage micing is by
    static, wired mics? If he agrees to that, it'll only be to make you
    shut up :)

    Although Barry's next to the ponies on the poster, he's not the pony
    man. He's an excellent singer and comedian - usually plays King,
    Baron or similar in pantomime.
     
    Laurence Payne, Dec 9, 2003
    #65
  6. Tony Morgan

    Tony Morgan Guest

    In what role(s)?
    Not at all. Without challenging your voracity, you know as well as I do
    that folk on the Internet sometimes claim to be something they're not. I
    don't know you, but I do know Gareth.
    Now to me that suggests that you already know that he's going to dispute
    what you said... now I wonder why you've made that remark?

    And, interestingly, I don't think I said that 40 channels is the
    "standard". But I guess that you'd know with your 25+ years experience
    in pro theatre that a 40-channel console would give a better static mic
    coverage than an 8-channel :)
     
    Tony Morgan, Dec 9, 2003
    #66
  7. Musical director. Therefore working closely with the sound designer
    and sound operator.
    And you're, as so often, assuming that anyone who doesn't accept you
    as the oracle on all matters is clueless. That's why so many people,
    in this and other groups, enjoy catching you out so much! You do ask
    for it, you know :)
    Because, Tony, we're conspiring behind your back to make you look
    stupid. I've spent all afternoon on the 'phone to Gareth, Anna and
    Barry setting them up. :)
    You said "most theatre sound consoles have 40 channels". On 3 Dec, at
    15.25. If this has a subtlety of meaning other than "40 channels are
    standard", so be it :)

    "Lion King" has an 89-input sound board. There's 40 channels of radio
    mics, some static mics, the band and some recorded sound. That's
    pretty typical for a big show now.

    The Pavilion, Rhyl, does, as it happens own a Soundcraft 40:8:2 sound
    board, if the British Theatre Directory is up to date. Perhaps
    someone said to you once: "Yeah, that's a pretty typical theatre
    console"?
     
    Laurence Payne, Dec 9, 2003
    #67
  8. Tony Morgan

    Tony Morgan Guest

    Then I bow to your vast experience and knowledge, and apologise for
    anything that I might have said or implied regarding your antecedents..

    Perhaps, since you are clearly the expert here, you can then perhaps
    explain then the advantages and disadvantages of balanced mics and the
    issues relating to the connection of balanced mics/feeds to unbalanced
    inputs (and vice-versa) so we can all learn something - which seems to
    be where all this started. Also the issues regarding the use of wireless
    mics with domestic camcorders.

    Oh, and thanks for the tip. Forewarned, and I'll endeavour to turn
    things around on Thursday evening - especially as Barry is billed with
    the Shetland Ponies :)
     
    Tony Morgan, Dec 9, 2003
    #68
  9. Then I bow to your vast experience and knowledge, and apologise for
    Sarcastic to the last, Tony :) You never disappoint us.
     
    Laurence Payne, Dec 9, 2003
    #69
  10. Tony Morgan

    Tony Morgan Guest

    Not at all. I was being absolutely serious. People criticise me for
    *not* apologising - it seems here to be a "lose-lose" situation :)

    And I *am* seriously seeking information/knowledge of the subjects
    mentioned. I'm anxious to learn from those who have the
    knowledge/experience that I lack.
     
    Tony Morgan, Dec 10, 2003
    #70

  11. OK. Theatre sound and music recording, with or without computers, I
    deal with every day. I'm still investigating, as a hobby sideline,
    how best to get quality sound into a camcorder. I know the system
    will record it, and that a cheap and nasty microphone will still be
    cheap and nasty whatever you connect it to. But I'm frustrated by
    the input stages of affordable camcorders, which seem to be about the
    quality of mic in on a Soundblaster computer card, i.e. almost
    complete crap :=( A nasty mic which at least matches this input
    electrically will I suppose sound better than a mismatched quality
    mic.

    I've had some success with a spaced pair of SM57s, interfaced to the
    camera via a "backwards" connected DI box. On-camera, a Sony PC-62
    (supplied with a portable minidisk recorder) works remarkably well, on
    a short extension cable. A radio mic is contra-indicated for music
    recording, as they tend to have a quite vicious degree of compression
    built in.

    My requirements are, perhaps, unusual, as the audio is often more
    important to me than the picture.
     
    Laurence Payne, Dec 10, 2003
    #71
  12. Tony Morgan

    Tony Morgan Guest

    Thanks Laurence. I tend to be more pragmatic however, seeking solutions
    more in line with what the average camcorder owner like myself is likely
    to be able to afford, and therefore likely to use. That was where I was
    coming from when I prepared the Sound Page.
     
    Tony Morgan, Dec 10, 2003
    #72
  13. Oh, if you want an EXPENSIVE option, I can suggest that as well :)
    The gear I mentioned is at the very bottom end of what I'd consider
    usable. £50 on a bad mic is wasted. £75 (the street price of a
    SM57) is money well spent.
     
    Laurence Payne, Dec 10, 2003
    #73
  14. Tony Morgan

    Tony Morgan Guest

    So you're recommending the SR57 for camcorder use?
     
    Tony Morgan, Dec 10, 2003
    #74
  15. I'm recommending the SM57 as a good, cheap general-purpose mic.
    Certainly not directly into a camcorder. As I said, it's worked well
    for me through a DI box, but then, DI boxes are the sort of thing I
    have lying around :)

    You can buy a hi/lo impedance transformer from Maplins for a few quid.
    With connectors and cables, it shouldn't cost much more than a tenner
    for anyone with basic soldering skills to make up an adaptor box. I
    might play around once panto's over and I've got time for such
    diversions :)

    Almost anything would be better than what I usually hear from
    camcorders. Maybe I shouldn't say that - the computer-music support
    groups are full of beginners who can't understand why plugging a
    guitar direct to mic in of as Audigy sounds so bad :-(
     
    Laurence Payne, Dec 10, 2003
    #75
  16. Tony Morgan

    Tony Morgan Guest

    The lowest price I could find on the Internet for a SR57 was £89.99.

    However, the search revealed this interesting and very informative site
    (actually a PDF):

    http://www.shure.com/pdf/booklets/audio_for_video_production.pdf

    I'm a bit pissed-off BTW, since I dumped a small 8-channel PP9 battery
    powered audio mixer when I moved up here to North Wales. Especially
    after reading the above PDF :-(
     
    Tony Morgan, Dec 11, 2003
    #76
  17. Tony Morgan

    Dave R Guest

    Laurence has typed in SM57, about 3 times now. Note the *M* rather than
    your R. Perhaps you're searching for the wrong thing?
     
    Dave R, Dec 11, 2003
    #77
  18. Tony Morgan

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    Have you seen the Beachtek range of adaptors? They attach to the tripod
    thread of the camcorder and feature balanced mic/line inputs, level controls
    and mono switch. Output is to minijacks or phonos. Canford and Optex sell
    them for around £175 + VAT. Not the cheapest solution but the results are
    good. Glensound also do a similar thing but for almost twice the price.

    --

    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University

    http://www.staffs.ac.uk/academic/artdesign/mediacentre
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Dec 11, 2003
    #78
  19. Thats a LOT of money for what such a box would do.
     
    Laurence Payne, Dec 11, 2003
    #79
  20. But that's probably about right for best advertised price. Most of us
    have a regular supplier who will give 10% or so, don't we?
     
    Laurence Payne, Dec 11, 2003
    #80
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