"New" TMY: same as it ever was?

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Thor Lancelot Simon, Mar 2, 2008.

  1. I happen to have all three sets of Kodak rotary-processing recommendations
    for Tmax 400 in front of me: the old (prior to move to new coating facility)
    Publication F-32, the "new" (first generation at new coating faciity) F-4016,
    and the "newest" (current production, "finer grain!") F-4032.

    Kodak claims that the "finer grain" TMY -- the newest stuff -- has "slightly"
    different processing times than the generation immediately prior. If their
    table is to be believed -- nonsense.

    The data in the newest -- F-4032 -- publication, for the "finer grain"
    film appear, for rotary processing of sheet film, to exactly match the
    data in the oldest -- F-32 -- publication, for the "old coating facility"
    film.

    Time to plug in the densitometer again and hope it's still working, I
    suppose. I wonder what exactly Kodak is up to: did they revert production
    to how (and where?) it used to be before the first set of changes?
     
    Thor Lancelot Simon, Mar 2, 2008
    #1
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  2. The newest publication is actually F-4043.
     
    Thor Lancelot Simon, Mar 2, 2008
    #2
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  3. Thor Lancelot Simon

    ____ Guest

    They probably didn't bother to rewrite the data sheet,...just rename it.
    Good luck.
     
    ____, Mar 2, 2008
    #3
  4. Thor Lancelot Simon

    ____ Guest

    Rewriting the book would mean they would have to care about analog
    imaging, I question that to be the case. When Kodak discontinued PX in
    sheet film I stopped using Kodak products.
     
    ____, Mar 2, 2008
    #4
  5. No -- they made a dramatic change in their development recommendation for
    the second version of the film, but now seem to have changed it back.

    The densitometer seems to work, so we'll see...
     
    Thor Lancelot Simon, Mar 2, 2008
    #5
  6. Thor Lancelot Simon

    Peter Guest

     
    Peter, Mar 2, 2008
    #6
  7. The data sheet you want is F-4043 for the "new"
    400T-Max, I have no idea what 4032 is. The latest T-Max data
    sheet covering all of the films is F-4016 dated October
    2007, however F-4043 is later and covers only the ISO-400
    film.
    My memory is that a new data sheet was issued when
    production of B&W film was moved to the same plant that
    coats color film. At that time it was stated that while new
    datasheets were issued T-Max films had always been coated in
    this plant and there were not major changes. The "new" film
    is evidently actually coated on a different machine and had
    some adjustments made to the emulsion and to the
    overcoating. The overcoating affects development times
    because it affects the penetration of the developer into the
    emulsion. It has the greatest effect on "induction time"
    that is, the time it takes for the image to begin appearing,
    but this also shifts all times somewhat and is not
    consistent with temperature.
    I don't know why Kodak made these changes but suspect
    that the production quality had begun to drift too much.
    When the films were moved to the color plant it was reported
    that Tri-X films, which really were moved to new machines,
    had finer grain than before and some found the grain finer
    than 400T-Max. This last should have been the case and may
    be an indicator that the T-Max line had drifted. It is also
    possible that changes in the formulation of the emulsion
    were made. I find the suggestion in the new datasheet that
    edge sharpness is improved to be interesting because it
    suggests such a change.
    I don't think Kodak ever just re-writes datasheets for
    no reason. However, since the development charts are based
    on sensitometric measurements and since these measurements
    are made on a continuing basis for tracking the production
    quality, its quite possible that at some point there is
    enough change to warrant new overall measurements and an
    amended datasheet.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Mar 2, 2008
    #7
  8. Thor Lancelot Simon

    Dave Guest

    If anyone here needs I have an ESECO Speedmaster B&W densitometer Model
    T-80BD and a Bessler 45 MXT enlarger4 looking for a new home.

    Also have a couple of Componon S lenses, carriers and other goodies also
    looking.

    Best,
    Dave
     
    Dave, Mar 2, 2008
    #8
  9. I am a little surprised to see Kodak actually rewriting datasheets
    at all any more, and I wonder if they are using an outside contractor
    as they do for a number of other technical services they used to handle
    in-house. Have a look at the big rotary-processing table in J-109
    (the Xtol datasheeet) and you'll see clear evidence they stopped work
    on that document in the middle -- the entries in the table for new
    Tmax 100 ("100TMX") are mostly left empty, and the values which are
    present are highly suspect (almost everything else in the table I have
    checked matches my measurements very closely; the 100TMX times, as far
    as I can tell, are just wrong).

    Speaking of J-109, for EI 400, Kodak has the same row of numbers for
    "old" and "older" TMY there:

    XTOL STOCK 1:1
    65=7.5 68=6.25 70=5.25 75=4 68=8.25 70=7.25 75=5.75 80=4.75

    Now, F-32 (the "oldest" TMY datasheet) has:
    XTOL STOCK 1:1
    68=6.25 70=5.5 72=5 75=4 68=8.25 70=7.25 72=6.75 75=5.75

    The only difference is at 70F, and from other data in the charts (the
    data for "old TMX") one can deduce that actually this data point must
    just be about half way between 5.5 and 5.25, as different Kodak charts
    list it as one or the other consistently.

    F-4016 (the "old" TMY datasheet) has:
    XTOL STOCK 1:1
    68=6.25 70=5.5 72=5 75=4 68=8.25 70=7.25 72=6.75 75=5.75

    F-4043 (the "new" TMY datasheet) has:
    XTOL STOCK 1:1
    65=7.25 68=6.5 70=6.25 72=5.75 75=5.25 65=10.75 68=9.25 70=8.5 72=7.75 75=7

    I was wrong: these are *not* the times from F-32 (which were almost exactly
    the same times as F-4016, the only difference being the one noted above).
    I think I confused myself last night because the numbers in the F-4016
    table do not include 65F, so my data were off by one column. These are a
    whole new set of times.

    Here is an interesting and perhaps useful fact -- if you trust the numbers
    for 100TMX from J-109/F-4016, which I personally do not (see above): at 68
    and 70F the new 400TMX times are only 15 seconds off the new 100TMX times,
    for XTOL 1:1, D-76, and HC-110 -- it may be that Kodak has deliberately
    retuned 400TMX so that 100 and 400 can once again be run in the same tank
    in commercial applications. However, this will most assuredly not work
    with TMAX RS or XTOL stock -- the data are all over the chart for those
    two.
     
    Thor Lancelot Simon, Mar 3, 2008
    #9
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