Newbie jerky DV question

Discussion in 'Video Cameras' started by P and H Macguire, Sep 7, 2003.

  1. I am at an early stage with this business but here is the problem:

    Camera: Panasonic DS15b (DV-in enabled)

    Software: Videowave 4


    Win 98se
    Athlon 900
    Radeon 8500le
    512 mb RAM
    30 gb free on disk

    I have managed to edit a video and Produce it, but when I Output it and play
    it through TV, panning shots appear jerky, which they don't on the orginal.
    I always use the Image Stabiliser option whwn filming. I don't have a
    manual, apart from the skimpy on-disc thing, so there may well be a setting
    somewhere which might cure this.

    Any ideas?

    Regards and thanks in advance

    Pat Macguire
    P and H Macguire, Sep 7, 2003
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  2. P and H Macguire

    Jerry. Guest

    Look you w*nker, I'm not the one saying it, it's people who KNOW a dammed
    sight MORE about the subject than you (will ever) know.
    Nothing to do with my ego, but there seems to be something in your ego that
    demands that you show your ignorance. Or do you know something that the
    EXPERTS don't ?....

    Also, WTF don't you read what people write, did I say you / must / have a
    dedicated HD, I said it HELPS, or are you now going to claim that it doesn't
    Jerry., Sep 7, 2003
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  3. Boys, boys! I did say Newbie. I can't find any reference to DMA in Hard
    Disks under Device Manager. There is an option for this under CD's though,
    which is checked. The HDD in question is a 60gb Seagate ST360020A,
    partitioned as D:\ =22gb and E:\=38gb. video is on E:\ and It's an ATA100.

    Does this help?


    Pat Macguire
    P and H Macguire, Sep 7, 2003
  4. P and H Macguire

    Tony Morgan Guest

    So if you're so damned smart (not!) please explain just what good will a
    second hard drive do when:

    1. Programs are run out of memory and *not* out of hard-disk.

    2. Providing you don't run into VM (virtual memory) operation (or take
    simple precautions not to do so) a separate second hard disk has no

    3. Providing that the read/write bandwidth of your (sole) hard disk
    supports the reading/writing of video (with a modest amount
    of headroom) the provision of a second hard disk has no
    effect or advantage. 5,400 rpm disks have a headroom of
    3x or more. If you don't believe me just benchmark your main
    disk, then benchmark your second hard disk.

    We've been through this all before and though it's been explained at
    some length you still fail to grasp the basic operation of Windows (or
    any other operating system), virtual memory, disk usage and access.

    I do get a little pissed-off when people like yourself continue to
    proliferate and perpetuate urban myths like this - just because your
    read it somewhere. No doubt someone will read what you're saying here,
    believe it, and carry one perpetuating an urban myth.

    Try understanding the process of capturing video and writing it to hard
    disk Jerry - I'm sure if you try real hard the penny will drop.

    To anyone but someone with a closed mind like yourself it's obvious when
    capturing video (aka writing it to hard disk) the limiting factor is
    solely the speed at which the video data can be written to that hard
    disk - and it doesn't matter if you have one or a thousand hard disks -
    that is the limiting factor. If the video is being spooled off your DV
    tape at 3.6Mb/s then if you can write that data to your (single) hard
    disk at 16Mb/s (which all 5400rpm disks can so) then there can be no
    problem. And it doesn't matter if you're using your main OS disk, or a
    disk especially reserved for video.

    And as I've explained before (but you can't or won't listen), the only
    time when there's a problem is when there is a shortage of system
    resources when the processing/management of the capture [1] entails
    paging DLLs etc onto the hard disk (i.e. going into VM mode) - but this
    will effect your second hard disk as well.

    [1] The same is true when "making" your video (aka
    assembling/writing your edited video to VCD, SVCD, DVD
    or back out to your miniDV tape)
    Tony Morgan, Sep 7, 2003
  5. P and H Macguire

    Jerry. Guest


    Place all that in a nice article and submit it to Computer Video or DV
    magazine in the USA for publication and open your finding / thoughts to
    expert criticism. If you are correct than a hell of a lot of people have got
    it wrong....
    Jerry., Sep 7, 2003
  6. P and H Macguire

    Tony Morgan Guest

    No, a hell of a lot of people read, believe, promulgate, proliferate and
    perpetuate urban myths on the Internet. And claim to be "experts" as
    though that will automatically validate something that can so easily
    shown to be false.

    Anyone who understands how Windows works in respect of disk access and
    the use of VM doesn't promulgate this urban myth. Folks *might* be
    experts with video but if they come out with this sort of rubbish
    they're clueless about the workings of computers.

    All you have to do is to do benchmarks on your OS drive, on your video
    drive, and apply just a little fourth-form arithmetic to see that it's a
    myth. Not exactly rocket-science. Just do your own disk-access
    benchmark, keep an open mind - and do those simple sums.

    The trick, whatever your disk arrangement is to ensure that you *never*
    go into virtual memory mode.

    I've had, what, probably in the order of a hundred e-mails from folk who
    have had problems (that you recommend getting a second drive to fix),
    but have applied my advice and had no more problems in doing video.

    Just keep an open mind - work things out for yourself. And don't believe
    someone simply because he proclaims himself to be an expert - simply ask
    him "why". I can assure you with this particular question you won't get
    an explanation that stands up to a tiny bit of analysis.

    I certainly don't rate myself as an expert - but I'll give an
    explanation and give a method for demonstrating what I say is true (as I
    have here). I very much doubt if your "experts" would (or could) do
    Tony Morgan, Sep 7, 2003
  7. P and H Macguire

    Tony Morgan Guest

    If I find there people (like here) with closed minds who aren't
    willing/capable of doing a disk access benchmark, then doing a few
    fourth-form sums - then no thanks.

    Anyone with a closed mind is not, to my mind, any sort of expert.
    Tony Morgan, Sep 7, 2003
  8. P and H Macguire

    Ed Fielden Guest

    First off, welcome to the wonderful world of digital video.
    It's all downhill from here. Be prepared for your hair to turn several
    shades more grey. :eek:)

    I've no idea what the argument in the rest of the thread stems from, but I'm
    going to attempt to be helpful, so here's my tuppence-worth...

    Before you throw your hard disk out the window, it might be worth looking at
    the 'field options' in your editing software. This has often been the cause
    of much frustration to me.

    It might be worth knowing a bit of background (if you don't already):
    PAL video works on 25 frames per second, each with 2 fields [half-pictures],
    interlaced. That means the tv scans the odd-numbered horizontal lines of the
    picture first [Field A], then scans the even-numbered horizontal lines
    second [Field B]. In an interlaced video, each field is made from a picture
    taken by the camera every 1/50 of a second.

    This tricks the eye into thinking that the frame rate is actually 50 frames
    per second - hence you get relatively smooth movement.

    Now, films and certain TV programmes are shot on film, which are a series of
    pictures taken every 1/24 of a second. No interlaced images - hence a
    slightly more 'jerky' feel to any movement. The seemingly odd frame rate is
    a legacy from the early days of film. For PAL transmission, the film is
    simply speeded up by 4% - up to 25 frames per second.

    The video you shoot on your Panasonic DS15B will most likely be interlaced,
    and so will have a field ORDER. This order defines which field comes first
    when drawing the picture on screen. If, somewhere along the line, the wrong
    field order is selected in your editing software, the result will be, quite
    simply taking the fields in the wrong order. So, instead of
    1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8.... you get: 2-1-4-3-6-5-8-7....
    Or, to put it another way, instead of A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B.... you get:
    This makes the video look very jerky and strange to watch.

    If the field option 'Frame-based' is selected, this means that your fields
    are merged into one frame - one picture, hence a 'filmic' look.

    On my Panasonic DS30B I can step through a field at a time when viewing on
    TV. Try doing this, if you can, and see if anything moves 'two steps forward
    and one step back' if you see what I mean!

    Anyway, it's worth a look before you try any dificult settings with your
    hard drive! :eek:)

    If you have any questions or would like clarification on any of the above or
    anything else, don't hesitate to ask. I work in the broadcast industry so I
    should be able to find something out if I don't already know it!
    Ed Fielden, Sep 8, 2003
  9. P and H Macguire

    xEcute Guest

    Moving away from the fire as the flames are getting too big,

    Try looking in Device Manager under IDE ATA/ATAPI DEVICEs.

    The DMA setting are asociated with the Primary and Secondary IDE channels,
    not the actual hard drives.
    xEcute, Sep 8, 2003
  10. Thanks for that. I've seen somewhere that if I can't see a DMA box, then
    it's been installed already. Device Manager says under HDD Controllers, "
    Via Bus Master PCI IDE Controller" so this seems likely. Off tomorrow for
    a week.


    Pat Macguire
    P and H Macguire, Sep 8, 2003
  11. P and H Macguire

    Juan Lauda Guest

    Sounds like a motion compensation problem, but your original post does not
    mention which device is being used to drive the TV display and what format
    the video is in.

    Are you using the TV out facility on the Radeon to drive the TV display or
    have you converted the DV to MPEG2 for playback on DVD-R in a domestic DVD

    Can you play back the raw DV captured from the camcorder, using say Windows
    Media Player? Does the panning scene exhibit the same jerky movement?

    What DVD player software do you use for playing MPEG2/DVD on your PC?

    Do prerecorded DVDs play back without jerking?

    What video format and recordable medium are you using to play back the video
    on your TV?

    Please post back with answers to the above and we should be able to help.

    In the meantime here is something to think about. DVD player software for
    PCs varies widely in quality of playback. I have a Radeon 9100 (very similar
    to the 8500LE - same R200 GPU) which support hardware acclerated DVD
    playback. Using CyberLink PowerDVD 4.0 on my Pentium 4 2.4GHz PC, playing a
    DVD at full screen uses over 60% CPU utilisation and movement is
    occasionally jerky, even when hardware acceleration is enabled. The same DVD
    played using Windows Media Player 9.0 uses less than 10% of CPU resources
    and movement is totally smooth. The point here is that an Athlon 900/Radeon
    8500 system such as yours with the "wrong" DVD player software could result
    in very poor playback of DVD/MPEG2 video.
    Juan Lauda, Sep 8, 2003
  12. P and H Macguire

    xEcute Guest

    I think it is true that the AMD IDE drivers activate DMA automatically if
    available and no option appears in the device properties, but VIA is a
    another story. Which version of the VIA 4in1 AKA Hyperion drivers do you
    have installed?

    With VIA drivers under Device Manager you should find Primary and Secondary
    IDE as well as VIA Bus Master PCI IDE Controller, the DMA setting will be
    under the Primary and Secondary IDE properties.
    xEcute, Sep 8, 2003
  13. viavsd.inf gives "10/18.2001, 2.0.950.120" is this what you refer to?


    Pat Macguire
    P and H Macguire, Sep 8, 2003
  14. P and H Macguire

    Jerry. Guest

    Are you really expecting people to believe that only you have done these
    tests ?!
    Could it not be case that other HAVE done these tests, tried out what you
    have found and have gone on to find that in the real world of commercial
    video editing [1] the theory does not work well enough (as often happens,
    hence why many things are 'over engineered').

    BTW, sorry for the double posting last night, the server seemed to be
    playing up.

    [1] either in the NLE supply side or the post production side of the
    Jerry., Sep 8, 2003
  15. P and H Macguire

    Tony Morgan Guest

    Evidenced by the (fortunately few) people here who argue on the basis of
    "what they've read" - I wouldn't waste my time.

    I don't feel the need to get the approval of those who mindlessly
    believe what they've read in the face of proof to the contrary - as has
    been offered here - then profess to be "experts" on the basis of what
    they've read.

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If you can't accept that then
    perhaps you should whittle away at someone else.
    Tony Morgan, Sep 8, 2003
  16. P and H Macguire

    Tony Morgan Guest

    You do talk a load of shit Jerry. Why can't you be man enough (and put
    your ego away) to admit that you're not only talking a load of rubbish,
    but simply do so in the face uncontroversial evidence to the contrary.
    Or are the sums a little to difficult for you?

    I've had to kill-file you before because you're so full of shit - please
    don't make me do it again. You *might* have something (other than urban
    myth) to say that might have some substance and I might miss it.

    Think !!! Use your brain !!! You remind me of those New Labour folk who
    blindly chant mantra without even examining whether the spin they're
    promulgating has any basis in fact.
    Tony Morgan, Sep 8, 2003
  17. P and H Macguire

    Jerry. Guest

    Oh come on !
    First you say that other just repeat old urban myths but then you say you
    won't show them the error of their ways....
    Sorry but the proof is submitting your ideas to scrutiny, something you seem
    unwilling to do....

    One swallow doesn't make a summer and never will until others arrive, one
    person saying everyone else is wrong is just one person until others start
    agreeing with you - and until then you have as much hope in having your
    views accepted as one swallow has of breeding !

    Come Mr Morgan, either put up or shut up.....
    Jerry., Sep 9, 2003
  18. P and H Macguire

    Jerry. Guest

    Your the man without the bollocks to put up or shut up, I have suggested
    ways you can 'put up' but you seem to be refusing...
    Look you twat, if you think all the magazine writers, system builders,
    professional system users etc. are wrong write an article and submit it for
    publication, it's that simple, prove your point don't just TELL. Or are you
    so unsure of your convictions that you prefer to attack me - attack being
    the best from of defence and all that.
    Jerry., Sep 9, 2003
  19. P and H Macguire

    Tony Morgan Guest

    Since you never have anything of substance to say here, it's you who
    should be shutting up...

    Still, your ego won't permit that so I'll help you....

    Plonk !!!
    Tony Morgan, Sep 9, 2003
  20. P and H Macguire

    Tony Morgan Guest

    In message <fd87b.683$>, Jerry.
    I don't need to attack you - you demonstrate continually that you have
    nothing of substance to say - you simply chant mantra without having the
    sense to examine it. Worse, when something relatively simple is
    explained to you, you stamp your feet and throw you toys out of you
    pram, instead of examining what is said and analysing it yourself.

    The only thing that you're good at is advising folk to spend money on
    kit that they don't actually need.
    Perhaps in your case the best thing is to ignore you since you have
    nothing sensible to say. So back you go again...

    Plonk !!!
    Tony Morgan, Sep 9, 2003
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