Nikon D300 Camera Out performing the Metering System in both A and S Modes

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by LuvLatins, Dec 25, 2007.

  1. From what was posted earlier [from the manual], it appears to be what Nikon
    was saying to me.
    The posting earlier suggested ISO adjustments and other options IIRC.
    Manual mode.
    Apeture Priority or Shutter Priority Mode.

    All are still the same issue. I thought what the manual indicated [as posted
    earlier by another poster] was clear on this topic. I think the manual for a
    camera such as the D300 expects the audience to have some degree of competency
    with photography and exposure, eh? The D300 is NOT a beginner's camera.
    The ISO for the 1.3 image was at the highest setting IIRC and the compensation
    required to get proper exposure was off the "scale", so it couldn't just put
    an arbitrary number in there.
    I thought the ISO setting for the first image was one of the HI settings which
    is the higest ISO setting with amplification/gain.
    No complaints there. My D200 at ISO800 leaves a lot of noise in black. I had
    an opportunity to try Noise Ninja on it and that is a wonderful tool which
    definitely reduces any desire I might have to "upgrade" to he D300. There are
    not really enough new features in the D300 to justify an upgrade in my case.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Dec 29, 2007
    #41
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  2. I think that is only beneficial in the critical 1/8s to 1/2s realm where
    mirror slap can cause vibration to blur the image captured. Outside of that
    range, I don't believe mirror slap will have much of an effect [unless you
    have a REALLY crappy platform that resonates at that frequency].
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Dec 29, 2007
    #42
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  3. LuvLatins

    acl Guest

    I meant handheld; if you're using a 90mm lens at 1/40s (for example)
    you'll still have problems, but exposure delay seems to greatly
    increase the proportion of sharp shots (for me, at least). Of course,
    a good tripod (or some other means of support) is better, but
    sometimes you're just stuck handholding.
     
    acl, Dec 29, 2007
    #43
  4. What effect would mirror slap have on handheld at 1/40s shutter speed?

    I can only imagine you are referring to live view, because otherwise, I don't
    see the correlation.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Dec 29, 2007
    #44
  5. BTW ... my last comment still applies. But in the case of handheld and an
    APS-C sensor, you need 1/90*2/3 or about 1/125s shutter speed to get a
    reasonably sharp image at 90mm. At 1/125s, mirror slap is not an issue,
    whether on a tripod or handheld. The last statement holds true at 1/40s.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Dec 29, 2007
    #45
  6. LuvLatins

    Paul Furman Guest

    I tend to agree with Thomas. Hand held shooting should absorb any mirror
    slap problems and I find the delay is just enough for me to relax &
    forget to hold steady. Mirror lockup is most useful to me with extreme
    macro where my tripod is not really up to the task.
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 29, 2007
    #46
  7. This would only be true if it so happens that the metering system
    moves towards underexposure as it moves down in light levels below its
    range of properly calibrated behaviour, or if Nikon had deliberately
    fudged it to do that, so they could catch uncertain low light metering
    under the same "error" umbrella of running out of adjustment range.

    Knowing these kinds of manuals, where critical information (or a clue)
    is sometimes buried in a footnote on a page you wouldn't have thought
    to consult, I wouldn't be sure this was being properly explained here
    if I hadn't read the entire manual quite carefully. I also wouldn't be
    too surprised if reading the whole manual quite carefully left some
    important questions unanswered.

    I had a look at the manual on-line, and would be rather disappointed
    if I'd spent that much money on a supposedly professional piece of
    equipment, and it came with such a dumbed down manual. But then maybe
    the impression of professional photographers given by this newsgroup
    is quite correct, that the last thing they'd ever do would be to look
    at a bloody manual :)
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 29, 2007
    #47
  8. It doesn't have to resonate at any particular frequency, it simply has
    to resonate for more than say 1/10th of a sec. If you're going for a
    long exposure with a long tele, e.g. catching a distant detail in a
    dim church, mirror slap and resulting oscillations can take the sharp
    edge off ten second exposures. Strength and stiffness in a tripod
    doesn't necessarily damp vibrations. While stiffness will reduce the
    amplitude of vibrations, it will often make them persist for longer.

    The heavy bag hung off the the central column is a good way of damping
    mirror slap vibrations. In fact for this kind of critical long
    exposure with long tele shot, in the absence of mirror lock a cheap
    tripod well damped with a heavy bag hang can give sharper results than
    a very expensive unbagged tripod.

    Mirror lock for me is one of the distinguishing features of the
    professional SLR (or DSLR).
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 29, 2007
    #48
  9. Like depth of field or accuracy of focus this is a relative matter the
    answer to which depends on how fussy you are. What is reasonably sharp
    on a 6" x 4" print may not be so at 24" x 16".
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 29, 2007
    #49
  10. What may be more important for sharpness is that the delay is long
    enough for the combination of camera mass and hand held compliance and
    damping to soak up the impetus of the mirror slap.
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 29, 2007
    #50
  11. LuvLatins

    acl Guest

    Of course, but when I said sharp I simply meant sharp when I look at
    pixels. Something like this
    http://www.pbase.com/al599/image/90920017
    (although I didn't put it there for to show this).
     
    acl, Dec 29, 2007
    #51
  12. LuvLatins

    acl Guest

    The thing is, there is no way for me to show what I mean. But try it:
    take a 28mm lens and shoot it at 1/10s. I do this all the time at
    night. Well, without this exposure delay I get practically no sharp
    shots, while with it about half are sharp.
     
    acl, Dec 29, 2007
    #52
  13. LuvLatins

    acl Guest

    I find that this 1/f (or 1.5/f for APS and so on) applies only to
    "moderate" focal lengths; for short, I can easily handhold with very
    slow shutter speeds (at 10mm I routinely handhold at 1/10s or 1/5s
    with perfectly sharp results), while at longer I need faster speeds
    than you'd expect (eg for a 90mm lens I need 1/200s or 1/250s for
    reliable results).

    Now one could start arguing about "sharp", but let's just accept that
    it simply means the same in both cases (since I am looking) and I'm
    not just changing what "sharp" means according to the lens.
     
    acl, Dec 29, 2007
    #53
  14. LuvLatins

    acl Guest

    Obviously, the effect of mirror slap at a given speed will depend on
    the camera, focal length, support etc. Anyway, all I was saying is
    that if I switch it on, I get around half shots to be sharp, while
    without it, much less (one in five or less). It's ok if you don't
    believe that, though.
     
    acl, Dec 29, 2007
    #54
  15. LuvLatins

    acl Guest

    In fact, there's no good and unambiguous explanation in the D200
    manual at least, which is why the "discussion" above can happen
    (although one could conceivably just take his camera and see whether
    Lo only appears when the speed exceeds 30s, instead of just arguing-
    but I digress).
    It certainly does. As you say, it's completely unacceptable for the
    price of the camera (I am referring to the D200's manual, but from
    what I've seen the level is the same). Which is why I think the OP's
    question is perfectly valid.
     
    acl, Dec 29, 2007
    #55
  16. LuvLatins

    acl Guest

    It must be something like that, but I always have trouble with trying
    to tell people this because I always get someone parroting that mirror
    slap is only important in the 1/2s to 1/20s range or something like
    that. No matter how the least effort in visualising the problem will
    (hopefully!) show that it obviously depends on many factors.
     
    acl, Dec 29, 2007
    #56
  17. LuvLatins

    acl Guest

    Yes exactly, the resonant frequency of your tripod should be the one
    you hear when you quickly and lightly bang on it with a piece of
    metal, and that's the mode that will be most strongly excited when you
    fire the shutter by definition of resonant, essentially (and since
    firing the shutter is close to a delta function impulse). So it's not
    the 1/8s is the resonant frequency of your tripod or anything like
    that (if it was, you'd get an 8Hz sound if you banged on it).

    What you want is for the damping rate of the oscillations at the
    particular frequency caused by mirror slap (say) to be large. Adding
    the bag damps all frequencies, hence also the resonant one.
     
    acl, Dec 29, 2007
    #57
  18. LuvLatins

    ASAAR Guest

    Yeah, something I considered, but don't have enough spare time
    right now for anything but essentials. My posts here have declined
    in number in recent weeks/months and I haven't even had time to take
    photos this holiday season. Hoping for a happier new year. :)
     
    ASAAR, Dec 29, 2007
    #58
  19. As it moves towards underexposure, it is almost certain
    to read higher than the actual light level, due to
    noise. Nikon doesn't have to fudge it to do that.
    It is interesting to look at the way it is described in several
    different manuals.
    Wha?? You think professional photographers are
    different than anyone else?
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Dec 29, 2007
    #59
  20. I agree that that image is sharp at pixel level, but that image is
    approx half a megabyte of pixels, which is barely enough for a sharp
    6" x 4" print. Your D200 can produce six megabyte images. Blurred six
    megabyte images can often be made sharp by reducing them by twelve
    times :)
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 29, 2007
    #60
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