Nikon D300s is the top camera on PC World's list of Best Products of 2009

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by agvx, Nov 29, 2009.

  1. agvx

    agvx Guest

    agvx, Nov 29, 2009
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  2. agvx

    ray Guest

    ray, Nov 29, 2009
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  3. Very similar to the computer magazine one reads to choose a camera!
    John McWilliams, Nov 29, 2009
  4. agvx

    J. Clarke Guest

    However when Amazon has a significant number of reviews for a product they
    are generally worthwhile reading.
    J. Clarke, Nov 29, 2009
  5. agvx

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Uh, yes there are.
    Ray Fischer, Nov 29, 2009
  6. agvx

    Ray Fischer Guest

    And I'm sure that PC World has quite the photo lab to objectively test
    cameras (cough).
    Ray Fischer, Nov 29, 2009
  7. agvx

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Let's see you define "better" first, idiot. And no, it is not the
    same as whatever brand arouses YOU.
    Ray Fischer, Nov 30, 2009
  8. agvx

    Ray Fischer Guest

    LOL! The rightard runs away! "Best" really is supposed to be whatever
    he says it is.
    Ray Fischer, Nov 30, 2009
  9. agvx

    whisky-dave Guest

    I wonder why that don;t advertise cameras like the do sports cars,
    i.e with scantily clad models all over them, it'd be much more appropriate
    than having them on car bonnets/boots.
    Not that it'll give us an idea of which camera is best but it'd make the
    reviews (cough)
    more entertaining. @-)
    whisky-dave, Nov 30, 2009
  10. agvx

    Guest Guest

    Guest, Nov 30, 2009
  11. agvx

    Chris H Guest

    I don't see how something released so recently can be on a Best Product
    List as no one has really had time to assess it and use it. The reviews
    are at best preliminary evaluations.
    Chris H, Nov 30, 2009
  12. agvx

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Show your evidence and then explain how that makes it the best camera.
    Pure opinion.
    Only because you say so.
    Ray Fischer, Dec 1, 2009
  13. agvx

    Bob Larter Guest

    Not that you have a bias against Canon...
    Bob Larter, Dec 1, 2009
  14. agvx

    Bob Larter Guest

    The geniuses at that site used Live-view to focus the DSLRS. Given that
    they negated the phase-based focusing system, it's not much of a
    surprise that the images were soft.
    Bob Larter, Dec 1, 2009
  15. agvx

    Bob Larter Guest

  16. Furthermore, they avoided sharpening, and used apertures unfavorable to
    good results in terms of sharpness!

    The entire article, plus most of the commentary- well, some of it- does
    make for a good read.
    John McWilliams, Dec 1, 2009
  17. agvx

    NameHere Guest

    And the DSLR had a stone in its shoe. Its lens' girdle was too tight. It
    didn't get enough rest the night before. It had a cold. ... got any more
    NameHere, Dec 1, 2009
  18. Oh, but you pretend-photographer DSLR-Trolls ALWAYS claim that ALL DSLRs
    will ALWAYS be better than even the best P&S cameras. Yet much evidence is
    contrary to those lame, inexperienced, and uneducated opinions of yours.
    Which is it now?

    As long as you keep spouting that nonsense then the less and less anyone
    believes anything you might ever post. Your yourselves have decreed you are
    nothing but pretend-photographer DSLR-Trolls, by your own admissions and

    You fucked-up and useless pretend-photographer DSLR-Trolls.
    Outing Trolls is FUN!, Dec 1, 2009
  19. (Thanks for giving me a reason to post this again.)

    Dear Resident Troll,

    Your replies are completely off-topic. Here are some (new & improved)
    topics that befit these newsgroups. Please consider them for future
    discussions and posts:

    If nothing else, be sure to read reasons 4, 26, and 27. What fun! :)

    1. P&S cameras can have more seamless zoom range than any DSLR glass in
    existence. (E.g. 9mm f2.7 - 1248mm f/3.5.) There are now some excellent
    wide-angle and telephoto (telextender) add-on lenses for many makes and
    models of P&S cameras. Add either or both of these small additions to your
    photography gear and, with some of the new super-zoom P&S cameras, you can
    far surpass any range of focal-lengths and apertures that are available or
    will ever be made for larger format cameras.

    2. P&S cameras can have much wider apertures at longer focal lengths than
    any DSLR glass in existence. (E.g. 549mm f/2.4 and 1248mm f/3.5) when used
    with high-quality telextenders, which do not reduce the lens' original
    aperture one bit. Following is a link to a hand-held taken image of a 432mm
    f/3.5 P&S lens increased to an effective 2197mm f/3.5 lens by using two
    high-quality teleconverters. To achieve that apparent focal-length the
    photographer also added a small step of 1.7x digital zoom to take advantage
    of the RAW sensor's slightly greater detail retention when upsampled
    directly in the camera for JPG output. As opposed to trying to upsample a
    JPG image on the computer where those finer RAW sensor details are already
    lost once it's left the camera's processing. (Digital-zoom is not totally
    empty zoom, contrary to all the net-parroting idiots online.) A HAND-HELD
    2197mm f/3.5 image from a P&S camera (downsized only, no crop): Note that
    any in-focus details are cleanly defined to the corners and there is no CA
    whatsoever. If you study the EXIF data the author reduced contrast and
    sharpening by 2-steps, which accounts for the slight softness overall. Any
    decent photographer will handle those operations properly in editing with
    more powerful tools and not allow a camera to do them for him. A full f/3.5
    aperture achieved at an effective focal-length of 2197mm (35mm equivalent).
    Only DSLRs suffer from loss of aperture due to the manner in which their
    teleconverters work. P&S cameras can also have higher quality full-frame
    180-degree circular fisheye and intermediate super-wide-angle views than
    any DSLR and its glass for far less cost. Some excellent fish-eye adapters
    can be added to your P&S camera which do not impart any chromatic
    aberration nor edge softness. When used with a super-zoom P&S camera this
    allows you to seamlessly go from as wide as a 9mm (or even wider) 35mm
    equivalent focal-length up to the wide-angle setting of the camera's own

    3. P&S smaller sensor cameras can and do have wider dynamic range than
    larger sensor cameras E.g. a 1/2.5" sized sensor can have a 10.3EV Dynamic
    Range vs. an APS-C's typical 7.0-8.0EV Dynamic Range. One quick example:

    4. P&S cameras are cost efficient. Due to the smaller (but excellent)
    sensors used in many of them today, the lenses for these cameras are much
    smaller. Smaller lenses are easier to manufacture to exacting curvatures
    and are more easily corrected for aberrations than larger glass used for
    DSLRs. This also allows them to perform better at all apertures rather than
    DSLR glass which usually performs well at only one aperture setting per
    lens. Side by side tests prove that P&S glass can out-resolve even the best
    DSLR glass ever made. See this side-by-side comparison for example
    When adjusted for sensor size, the DSLR lens is creating 4.3x's the CA that
    the P&S lens is creating, and the P&S lens is resolving almost 10x's the
    amount of detail that the DSLR lens is resolving. A difficult to figure 20x
    P&S zoom lens easily surpassing a much more easy to make 3x DSLR zoom lens.
    After all is said and done you will spend anywhere from 1/10th to 1/50th
    the price on a P&S camera that you would have to spend in order to get
    comparable performance in a DSLR camera. To obtain the same focal-length
    ranges as that $340 SX10 camera with DSLR glass that *might* approach or
    equal the P&S resolution, it would cost over $6,500 to accomplish that (at
    the time of this writing). This isn't counting the extra costs of a
    heavy-duty tripod required to make it functional at those longer
    focal-lengths and a backpack to carry it all. Bringing that DSLR investment
    to over 20 times the cost of a comparable P&S camera. When you buy a DSLR
    you are investing in a body that will require expensive lenses, hand-grips,
    external flash units, heavy tripods, more expensive larger filters, etc.
    etc. The outrageous costs of owning a DSLR add up fast after that initial
    DSLR body purchase. Camera companies count on this, all the way to their

    5. P&S cameras are lightweight and convenient. With just one P&S camera
    plus one small wide-angle adapter and one small telephoto adapter weighing
    just a couple pounds, you have the same amount of zoom range as would
    require over 15 pounds of DSLR body + lenses. The P&S camera mentioned in
    the previous example is only 1.3 lbs. The DSLR + expensive lenses that
    *might* equal it in image quality comes in at 9.6 lbs. of dead-weight to
    lug around all day (not counting the massive and expensive tripod,
    You can carry the whole P&S kit + accessory lenses in one roomy pocket of a
    wind-breaker or jacket. The DSLR kit would require a sturdy backpack. You
    also don't require a massive tripod. Large tripods are required to
    stabilize the heavy and unbalanced mass of the larger DSLR and its massive
    lenses. A P&S camera, being so light, can be used on some of the most
    inexpensive, compact, and lightweight tripods with excellent results.

    6. P&S cameras are silent. For the more common snap-shooter/photographer,
    you will not be barred from using your camera at public events,
    stage-performances, and ceremonies. Or when trying to capture candid shots
    you won't so easily alert all those within a block around, by the obnoxious
    clattering noise that your DSLR is making, that you are capturing anyone's
    images. For the more dedicated wildlife photographer a P&S camera will not
    endanger your life when photographing potentially dangerous animals by
    alerting them to your presence.

    7. Some P&S cameras can run the revolutionary CHDK software on them, which
    allows for lightning-fast motion detection (literally, lightning fast 45ms
    response time, able to capture lightning strikes automatically) so that you
    may capture more elusive and shy animals (in still-frame and video) where
    any evidence of your presence at all might prevent their appearance.
    Without the need of carrying a tethered laptop along or any other hardware
    into remote areas--which only limits your range, distance, and time
    allotted for bringing back that one-of-a-kind image. It also allows for
    unattended time-lapse photography for days and weeks at a time, so that you
    may capture those unusual or intriguing subject-studies in nature. E.g. a
    rare slime-mold's propagation, that you happened to find in a
    mountain-ravine, 10-days hike from the nearest laptop or other time-lapse
    hardware. (The wealth of astounding new features that CHDK brings to the
    creative-table of photography are too extensive to begin to list them all
    here. See )

    8. P&S cameras can have shutter speeds up to 1/40,000th of a second. See: Allowing you to capture fast
    subject motion in nature (e.g. insect and hummingbird wings) WITHOUT the
    need of artificial and image destroying flash, using available light alone.
    Nor will their wing shapes be unnaturally distorted from the focal-plane
    shutter distortions imparted in any fast moving objects, as when
    photographed with all DSLRs. (See focal-plane-shutter-distortions
    example-image link in #10.)

    9. P&S cameras can have full-frame flash-sync up to and including
    shutter-speeds of 1/40,000th of a second. E.g.
    without the use of any expensive and specialized focal-plane shutter
    flash-units that must pulse their light-output for the full duration of the
    shutter's curtain to pass slowly over the frame. The other downside to
    those kinds of flash units is that the light-output is greatly reduced the
    faster the shutter speed. Any shutter speed used that is faster than your
    camera's X-Sync speed is cutting off some of the flash output. Not so when
    using a leaf-shutter. The full intensity of the flash is recorded no matter
    the shutter speed used. Unless, as in the case of CHDK capable cameras
    where the camera's shutter speed can even be faster than the lightning-fast
    single burst from a flash unit. E.g. If the flash's duration is 1/10,000 of
    a second, and your CHDK camera's shutter is set to 1/20,000 of a second,
    then it will only record half of that flash output. P&S cameras also don't
    require any expensive and dedicated external flash unit. Any of them may be
    used with any flash unit made by using an inexpensive slave-trigger that
    can compensate for any automated pre-flash conditions. Example:

    10. P&S cameras do not suffer from focal-plane shutter drawbacks and
    limitations. Causing camera shake, moving-subject image distortions
    (focal-plane-shutter distortions, e.g.
    do note the distorted tail-rotor too and its shadow on the ground,
    90-degrees from one another), last-century-slow flash-sync, obnoxiously
    loud slapping mirrors and shutter curtains, shorter mechanical life, easily
    damaged, expensive repair costs, etc.

    11. When doing wildlife photography in remote and rugged areas and harsh
    environments; or even when the amateur snap-shooter is trying to take their
    vacation photos on a beach or dusty intersection on some city street;
    you're not worrying about trying to change lenses in time to get that shot
    (fewer missed shots), dropping one in the mud, lake, surf, or on concrete
    while you do; and not worrying about ruining all the rest of your photos
    that day from having gotten dust & crud on the sensor. For the adventurous
    photographer you're no longer weighed down by many many extra pounds of
    unneeded glass, allowing you to carry more of the important supplies, like
    food and water, allowing you to trek much further than you've ever been
    able to travel before with your old D/SLR bricks.

    12. Smaller sensors and the larger apertures available at longer
    focal-lengths allow for the deep DOF required for excellent
    macro-photography when using normal macro or tele-macro lens arrangements.
    All done WITHOUT the need of any image destroying, subject irritating,
    natural-look destroying flash. No DSLR on the planet can compare in the
    quality of available-light macro photography that can be accomplished with
    nearly any smaller-sensor P&S camera. (To clarify for DSLR owners/promoters
    who don't even know basic photography principles: In order to obtain the
    same DOF on a DSLR you'll need to stop down that lens greatly. When you do
    then you have to use shutter speeds so slow that hand-held
    macro-photography, even in full daylight, is all but impossible. Not even
    your highest ISO is going to save you at times. The only solution for the
    DSLR user is to resort to artificial flash which then ruins the subject and
    the image; turning it into some staged, fake-looking, studio setup.)

    13. P&S cameras include video, and some even provide for CD-quality stereo
    audio recordings, so that you might capture those rare events in nature
    where a still-frame alone could never prove all those "scientists" wrong.
    E.g. recording the paw-drumming communication patterns of eusocial-living
    field-mice. With your P&S video-capable camera in your pocket you won't
    miss that once-in-a-lifetime chance to record some unexpected event, like
    the passage of a bright meteor in the sky in daytime, a mid-air explosion,
    or any other newsworthy event. Imagine the gaping hole in our history of
    the Hindenberg if there were no film cameras there at the time. The mystery
    of how it exploded would have never been solved. Or the amateur 8mm film of
    the shooting of President Kennedy. Your video-ready P&S camera being with
    you all the time might capture something that will be a valuable part of
    human history one day.

    14. P&S cameras have 100% viewfinder coverage that exactly matches your
    final image. No important bits lost, and no chance of ruining your
    composition by trying to "guess" what will show up in the final image. With
    the ability to overlay live RGB-histograms, and under/over-exposure area
    alerts (and dozens of other important shooting data) directly on your
    electronic viewfinder display you are also not going to guess if your
    exposure might be right this time. Nor do you have to remove your eye from
    the view of your subject to check some external LCD histogram display,
    ruining your chances of getting that perfect shot when it happens.

    15. P&S cameras can and do focus in lower-light (which is common in natural
    settings) than any DSLRs in existence, due to electronic viewfinders and
    sensors that can be increased in gain for framing and focusing purposes as
    light-levels drop. Some P&S cameras can even take images (AND videos) in
    total darkness by using IR illumination alone. (See: Sony) No other
    multi-purpose cameras are capable of taking still-frame and videos of
    nocturnal wildlife as easily nor as well. Shooting videos and still-frames
    of nocturnal animals in the total-dark, without disturbing their natural
    behavior by the use of flash, from 90 ft. away with a 549mm f/2.4 lens is
    not only possible, it's been done, many times, by myself. (An interesting
    and true story: one wildlife photographer was nearly stomped to death by an
    irate moose that attacked where it saw his camera's flash come from.)

    16. Without the need to use flash in all situations, and a P&S's nearly
    100% silent operation, you are not disturbing your wildlife, neither
    scaring it away nor changing their natural behavior with your existence.
    Nor, as previously mentioned, drawing its defensive behavior in your
    direction. You are recording nature as it is, and should be, not some
    artificial human-changed distortion of reality and nature.

    17. Nature photography requires that the image be captured with the
    greatest degree of accuracy possible. NO focal-plane shutter in existence,
    with its inherent focal-plane-shutter distortions imparted on any moving
    subject will EVER capture any moving subject in nature 100% accurately. A
    leaf-shutter or electronic shutter, as is found in ALL P&S cameras, will
    capture your moving subject in nature with 100% accuracy. Your P&S
    photography will no longer lead a biologist nor other scientist down
    another DSLR-distorted path of non-reality.

    18. Some P&S cameras have shutter-lag times that are even shorter than all
    the popular DSLRs, due to the fact that they don't have to move those
    agonizingly slow and loud mirrors and shutter curtains in time before the
    shot is recorded. In the hands of an experienced photographer that will
    always rely on prefocusing their camera, there is no hit & miss
    auto-focusing that happens on all auto-focus systems, DSLRs included. This
    allows you to take advantage of the faster shutter response times of P&S
    cameras. Any pro worth his salt knows that if you really want to get every
    shot, you don't depend on automatic anything in any camera.

    19. An electronic viewfinder, as exists in all P&S cameras, can accurately
    relay the camera's shutter-speed in real-time. Giving you a 100% accurate
    preview of what your final subject is going to look like when shot at 3
    seconds or 1/20,000th of a second. Your soft waterfall effects, or the
    crisp sharp outlines of your stopped-motion hummingbird wings will be 100%
    accurately depicted in your viewfinder before you even record the shot.
    What you see in a P&S camera is truly what you get. You won't have to guess
    in advance at what shutter speed to use to obtain those artistic effects or
    those scientifically accurate nature studies that you require or that your
    client requires. When testing CHDK P&S cameras that could have shutter
    speeds as fast as 1/40,000th of a second, I was amazed that I could
    half-depress the shutter and watch in the viewfinder as a Dremel-Drill's
    30,000 rpm rotating disk was stopped in crisp detail in real time, without
    ever having taken an example shot yet. Similarly true when lowering shutter
    speeds for milky-water effects when shooting rapids and falls, instantly
    seeing the effect in your viewfinder. Poor DSLR-trolls will never realize
    what they are missing with their anciently slow focal-plane shutters and
    wholly inaccurate optical viewfinders.

    20. P&S cameras can obtain the very same bokeh (out of focus foreground and
    background) as any DSLR by just increasing your focal length, through use
    of its own built-in super-zoom lens or attaching a high-quality telextender
    on the front. Just back up from your subject more than you usually would
    with a DSLR. Framing and the included background is relative to the subject
    at the time and has nothing at all to do with the kind of camera and lens
    in use. Your f/ratio (which determines your depth-of-field), is a
    computation of focal-length divided by aperture diameter. Increase the
    focal-length and you make your DOF shallower. No different than opening up
    the aperture to accomplish the same. The two methods are identically
    related where DOF is concerned.

    21. P&S cameras will have perfectly fine noise-free images at lower ISOs
    with just as much resolution as any DSLR camera. Experienced Pros grew up
    on ISO25 and ISO64 film all their lives. They won't even care if their P&S
    camera can't go above ISO400 without noise. An added bonus is that the P&S
    camera can have larger apertures at longer focal-lengths than any DSLR in
    existence. The time when you really need a fast lens to prevent
    camera-shake that gets amplified at those focal-lengths. Even at low ISOs
    you can take perfectly fine hand-held images at super-zoom settings.
    Whereas the DSLR, with its very small apertures at long focal lengths
    require ISOs above 3200 to obtain the same results. They need high ISOs,
    you don't. If you really require low-noise high ISOs, there are some
    excellent models of Fuji P&S cameras that do have noise-free images up to
    ISO1600 and more.

    22. Don't for one minute think that the price of your camera will in any
    way determine the quality of your photography. Any of the newer cameras of
    around $100 or more are plenty good for nearly any talented photographer
    today. IF they have talent to begin with. A REAL pro can take an award
    winning photograph with a cardboard Brownie Box Camera made a century ago.
    If you can't take excellent photos on a P&S camera then you won't be able
    to get good photos on a DSLR either. Never blame your inability to obtain a
    good photograph on the kind of camera that you own. Those who claim they
    NEED a DSLR are only fooling themselves and all others. These are the same
    people that buy a new camera every year, each time thinking, "Oh, if I only
    had the right camera, a better camera, better lenses, faster lenses, then I
    will be a great photographer!" If they just throw enough money at their
    hobby then the talent-fairy will come by one day, after just the right
    offering to the DSLR gods was made, and bestow them with something that
    they never had in the first place--talent. Camera company's love these
    people. They'll never be able to get a camera that will make their
    photography better, because they never were a good photographer to begin
    with. They're forever searching for that more expensive camera that might
    one day come included with that new "talent in a box" feature. The irony is
    that they'll never look in the mirror to see what the real problem has been
    all along. They'll NEVER become good photographers. Perhaps this is why
    these self-proclaimed "pros" hate P&S cameras so much. P&S cameras
    instantly reveal to them their piss-poor photography skills. It also
    reveals the harsh reality that all the wealth in the world won't make them
    any better at photography. It's difficult for them to face the truth.

    23. Have you ever had the fun of showing some of your exceptional P&S
    photography to some self-proclaimed "Pro" who uses $30,000 worth of camera
    gear. They are so impressed that they must know how you did it. You smile
    and tell them, "Oh, I just use a $150 P&S camera." Don't you just love the
    look on their face? A half-life of self-doubt, the realization of all that
    lost money, and a sadness just courses through every fiber of their being.
    Wondering why they can't get photographs as good after they spent all that
    time and money. Get good on your P&S camera and you too can enjoy this fun

    24. Did we mention portability yet? I think we did, but it is worth
    mentioning the importance of this a few times. A camera in your pocket that
    is instantly ready to get any shot during any part of the day will get more
    award-winning photographs than that DSLR gear that's sitting back at home,
    collecting dust, and waiting to be loaded up into that expensive back-pack
    or camera bag, hoping that you'll lug it around again some day.

    25. A good P&S camera is a good theft deterrent. When traveling you are not
    advertising to the world that you are carrying $20,000 around with you.
    That's like having a sign on your back saying, "PLEASE MUG ME! I'M THIS
    STUPID AND I DESERVE IT!" Keep a small P&S camera in your pocket and only
    take it out when needed. You'll have a better chance of returning home with
    all your photos. And should you accidentally lose your P&S camera you're
    not out $20,000. They are inexpensive to replace.

    26. A good P&S camera can even rival the images produced by a Medium-Format
    Hasselblad H2. Something that no DSLR owner would even think of trying to
    do. Even when the Hasselblad is securely mounted on an expensive and hefty
    tripod, the mirror locked-up, and using a self-timer and cable-release to
    trip the shutter to ensure the utmost in image resolution and clarity;
    while the P&S camera was just set on top of the Hasselblad, HAND-HELD, and
    the shutter tripped with a finger. The images between the two cameras are
    still indistinguishable. Don't believe it? Then you need to enjoy this fun

    27. Even the latest DSLR from Canon, the D7, can't beat the image quality
    from their earlier G9 and G11 P&S cameras.

    There are many more reasons to add to this list but this should be more
    than enough for even the most unaware person to realize that P&S cameras
    are just better, all around. No doubt about it.

    The phenomenon of everyone yelling "You NEED a DSLR!" can be summed up in
    just one short phrase:

    "If even 5 billion people are saying and doing a foolish thing, it remains
    a foolish thing."
    DSLR-Troll Killer, Dec 1, 2009
  20. agvx

    Charles Guest

    Shutter lag?

    What kind of shots do you take?

    Are you oblivious to how cameras are used by action photographers?

    P&S cameras won't even keep up with my Grandkids!
    Charles, Dec 2, 2009
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