Nikon maintains DSLR lead over Canon

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by frederick, Jul 13, 2007.

  1. frederick

    Bill Funk Guest

    "under identical conditions" means under one set of conditions.
    You can not translate that to mean "under all conditions".
    Thus, no proof that VR/IS doesn't work on WA lenses.


    Al Gore's son was pulled over by police on the
    San Diego Freeway Tuesday with marijuana, Valium,
    Xanax and Vicodin on him. The kid never had a
    chance. He got hooked on downers at an early
    age listening to his father read him bedtime
    Bill Funk, Jul 17, 2007
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  2. Thanks, Alan.

    I don't quite follow your analysis for the sensor-moving systems. You
    seem to be suggesting that accelerometers are measuring the camera's X and
    Y translation, rather than the rotation which I'm sure they are actually
    sensing. Any translation in the camera would only affect quite close
    subjects, at least compared with the effects of rotation.

    These systems don't detect movement based on the image content, so the
    brief absences of the image wouldn't matter for either the rotations along
    the X- and Y-axis, nor for rotations about the Z-axis.

    I've not been aware of actually incurring rotational camera shake, but
    perhaps I'll find it if I look more carefully.

    David J Taylor, Jul 17, 2007
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  3. frederick

    Alan Browne Guest

    The detections, per the Pentax data sheet sense rotation (I take this to

    mean pitch and yaw and probably roll) but they are actuating the image
    sensor in translation (x,y) and lens axis rotation only. Making
    assumptions (perhaps based on the mounted lens) on center of gravity
    could provide a reference point for computing the translation vectors
    from the rotation vectors. (This last bit is speculation, the data
    sheet mentions that the system will perform best on lenses for which the
    camera can read the focal length or for which the user enters the focal
    length (older lenses)).
    I wasn't implying that it was sensing the image (hard to do with the
    mirror down and the shutter closed) but rather that based on the
    inertially sensed movement it is attempting to keep the moving sensor
    centered on the desired image location. (No different than the lens
    systems which based on movement are trying to project the desired image
    to the right location on the still sensor).

    Like the K-M system, Pentax do not recommend the S-R for panning shots.
    This makes wonder if they could isolate the Shake function in vertical
    only and freeze the horizontal. This could possibly even be sensed and
    automatically done. (As it is in some second gen IS lenses; not sure
    about VR).
    If your shutter release technique is good, then it is not much (any) of
    an issue. But many people have poor "jab" technique. As the shutter is
    way off lens axis, a rotation and backlash will occur. I still find
    myself occasionally lapsing into poor shutter release technique.

    Mount a laser parallel to the lens axis to see.

    Alan Browne, Jul 17, 2007
  4. frederick

    ASAAR Guest

    What, another troll-like slur on my nym? I have a mind to . . . uh
    .. . . oops. Never mind.

    I'll bet that with continued testing using the same shooters you'd
    find that the results also depend on other factors, such as the time
    of day, weather, day person vs. night person, etc. Maybe a more
    repeatable robot, with programmed pseudo-random jitter would make
    for more useful and repeatable results.
    ASAAR, Jul 17, 2007
  5. frederick

    Alan Browne Guest

    Better than pseudo random would be to record data from as many users as
    possible in as many situations as possible and then play that back to
    actuate the camera A-S.

    That's the only way to get directly comparable results.

    The setup as I described will still get statistically useful comparisons.

    Alan Browne, Jul 17, 2007
  6. frederick

    frederick Guest

    Okay, if you're going to be a pedant and you are just assuming that the
    result is limited to Japan;
    As the known market shares for Japan and Europe in past years correlate
    well, then we can comfortably assume that the same applies this year.
    frederick, Jul 17, 2007
  7. frederick

    Alan Browne Guest

    I'm not being pedantic, just pointing out the fact that you failed to
    point out. When referencing a news article you can't assume because it
    says x for Japan that it also means x for Europe.

    Now that you claim it correlates to Europe, please show your references.

    And _never_ assume (comfortably or otherwise) that trends in Europe
    match those in Japan. The Japanese are a culture apart when it comes to
    leisure trends, jumping in unexpected ways, and not jumping in expected

    Alan Browne, Jul 17, 2007
  8. Thank you for admitting that IS can actually hurt an image under certain
    conditions. Your findings are what I'm seeing. Many have agued with me
    that it is not possible to hurt an image with IS/VR. Skip was one of the
    disbelievers. Anyway, I'm looking forward to reading your findings, as this
    will outline the benefits and pitfalls of IS/VR. For all practical purposes
    I keep mine switched off till I really feel I need it for the shot. As for
    the WA testing, it's not that I don't believe you it's just that I'm not
    seeing it happening on my end. You might be getting a few marginal hits at
    28mm where improvement is so barely perceptible you have to look at each
    pixel, which I'm assuming you are doing. At 17mm there isn't going to be
    any improvement at the pixel level. A simple analogy would be comparing
    this to a tuned RF signal that is resonate at a certain frequency but drops
    off and attenuates the further you deviate from center frequency. If you
    plot a graph you will see a sharply declining slope starting at 50mm.

    Rita Ä Berkowitz, Jul 17, 2007
  9. LOL! Try it for yourself and tell us what you really find out? Get one of
    your friends to help you set up a double-blind test and shoot 50 shots and
    see if you can accurately pick out which ones have IS on and which ones have
    it off. The friend is needed to set and cover the switch to prevent
    cheating and document the settings.

    Rita Ä Berkowitz, Jul 17, 2007
  10. Alan,

    It is not possible to determine translation vectors from rotation
    vectors, they are quite independent.

    David Littlewood, Jul 17, 2007
  11. frederick

    No One Guest

    Do y'all mind posting some sources?
    No One, Jul 17, 2007
  12. frederick

    frederick Guest

    I don't say it *does* correlate to Europe, just that in past years,
    market share by manufacturer was similar in Japan and Europe, and from
    that you could *assume* with some comfort that the same would apply for
    2007. You can check back on the figures - I can't be bothered, as I've
    got nothing I need to prove.
    IIRC, in rough figures, market share was:
    2005 Canon >50% Nikon <30% (similar in Japan & Europe)
    2006 Canon <50% Nikon >30% "" ""
    2007 Canon >30% Nikon <50% (Japan only known)

    See above.
    frederick, Jul 17, 2007
  13. frederick

    SMS Guest

    Actually, if I were just starting out, with no lenses or flashes, with
    $1000 to spend, I'd buy the D80 rather than a Canon 30D. If I wanted to
    spend only $700 on a body, I'd buy the Canon XTi. It's the D40/D40x that
    you really want to avoid.
    SMS, Jul 18, 2007
  14. frederick

    SMS Guest

    Actually it's the rate of increase that's declining for point and shoot
    cameras, not the absolute number sold, while the SLR's rate of increase
    is increasing.


    IDC predicts actual unit sales will start decreasing in 2009.

    Canon is building a new sensor factory because D-SLR sales are so strong:


    I would expect Nikon to be ahead of Canon now. Canon really hasn't
    responded to the D80 with a higher resolution prosumer level camera, and
    they haven't come out with a new low end model to compete with the
    high-volume D40/D40x.
    SMS, Jul 18, 2007
  15. frederick

    Alan Browne Guest

    Since the Pentax system uses gyros (angular rate sensors) yet moves the
    sensor in the plane perpendicular to the lens axis, it would seem to be so.

    I assume that there have to be assumptions about what the rotation
    center is v. the origin of the image sensor... then it can be done in
    instantaneous terms.

    Alan Browne, Jul 18, 2007
  16. frederick

    Alan Browne Guest

    I'm not here to defend your assertions.

    So you make statements without the backup.

    The only "fact" you presented was a position for Nikon in Japan. Just
    admit it and move on.

    Show the real numbers and cite the source.

    And by the way, I am not a Canon user. I have more Nikon gear (in $)
    than most Nikon DSLR owners.

    Alan Browne, Jul 18, 2007
  17. frederick

    frederick Guest

    Finding the BCN figures again is a pain in the *@#$ because I don't
    speak Japanese, but here's a link to get you started:
    I'm also a Nikon user, and in fact the figures don't make me happy, as
    Nikon appear to be maintaining sales at good (for their business) levels
    at relatively high prices - ie the D40x at the 400d price is IMO _not_
    very good value. While they enjoy high sales, I don't see them
    motivated to reduce prices, or hurrying to release new higher end product.
    frederick, Jul 18, 2007
  18. Alan Browne wrote:
    Yes, there will be a calculation to convert the required angular
    correction into a linear movement of the sensor, but equally, with
    lens-based IS, there has to be a similar calculation as to how much to
    shift the lens elements linearly in X and Y to offset the measured
    rotation. The calculation will be similar in both cases, requiring
    knowledge about the lens zoom setting and, in the case of in-camera-IS,
    some knowledge about how far away from the focal plane the ray bundle
    emerges from the lens. I don't know the correct optical term for this,
    but it will be lens-dependant.

    I am not yet convinced that the centre of gravity (or the centre of
    inertia) comes into this.

    David J Taylor, Jul 18, 2007
  19. Ah, a fudge; must though be highly dependent on the lens in use, as this
    would affect the centre of mass. Perhaps I should have said "it is not
    possible to determine translation vectors *accurately* from rotation

    David Littlewood, Jul 18, 2007
  20. frederick

    Sachin Garg Guest

    I think more 'global' stats can paint a more objective picture on
    Canon vs Nikon market share and the relative growth and size of DSLR
    vs Compact market.

    Canon shipped 2.46 DSLRs million, 31% growth over last year. Nikon
    made 1.74 million shipments, 36 percent growth. Sony made 326,000 SLR
    shipments in 2006. Samsung and Panasonic shipped 43,000 and 36,000
    SLRs, respectively.

    The overall camera market grew 15 percent to 105.7 million in 2006.
    The compact market grew 14 percent to 100.4 million. Total 5.3 million
    SLRs were shipped in 2006, 39% growth over last year.

    I first posted this back in April,

    Hope this helps.

    Sachin Garg [India] |
    Sachin Garg, Jul 18, 2007
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