No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

Discussion in 'Digital Point & Shoot Camera' started by Nushar, Aug 21, 2007.

  1. Nushar

    Nushar Guest

    Living with a very nice film SLR, and a digital p&s, i decided to
    investigate a serious ditial p&s as my travel camera: compact size,
    28-200 range, manual control.

    Frankly, I am disgusted that with so many companies flooding the market
    with so many models that they must be running out of model numbers to
    name them, they have all decided not to offer even a single model that
    will appeal to a serious hobbyist like me!

    The cameras with all the feature I want are way too big for the purpose
    (Lumix FZ-18, oLympus 550 SZ). Cameras of manageable size make you
    give up on some important feature: Lumix TZ-3 (no manual control) and
    LX2 (limited telephoto) are probably the best examples.

    So, I'll have to decide which feature to give up: compact size (FZ-18),
    manual control (tz-3), telephoto (lx-2 or Leica version). If it is
    telephoto I decide to give up, then I'd also investigate the Ricoh
    models that start at 24mm.

    Or I could just wait until somebody offers the first p&s for me. Why
    spend money and still be unhappy? :) It is not like I don't have any
    cameras to take pictures right now.
     
    Nushar, Aug 21, 2007
    #1
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  2. Nushar

    measekite Guest

    You did not mention the Canon S5 IS and the new soon to be released
    Canon G9.
     
    measekite, Aug 21, 2007
    #2
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  3. Nushar

    Nushar Guest

    : You did not mention the Canon S5 IS and the new soon to be
    : released Canon G9.

    AFAIK both lack wide angle (28mm or lower).
     
    Nushar, Aug 21, 2007
    #3
  4. Nushar

    AAvK Guest


    You'd HAVE to give up on the 'compact size' unless you can give up zoom size. And
    that Oly 550 is really quite small compared to my s6000fd, it's like a s700 (denoted to
    be in the "serious" catagory -LOL). But for that insane zoomer I would go with the Oly,
    or cut the zoom and spend less on a E900 for compact-ness and serious image quality
    (does 9mp raw), which should really be the point of "the hobby". E900 has a good
    enough zoom of 32-128mm. Maybe some company makes a slip-on auxiliary lens or
    two for it. But don't sterotype "28mm" as being so totaly necessary, please.
     
    AAvK, Aug 21, 2007
    #4
  5. Nushar

    AAvK Guest


    Here's the example, slip-on auxiliary lenses and the adapter for them:

    ebay's search engine: 230162290331
     
    AAvK, Aug 21, 2007
    #5
  6. Nushar

    Nushar Guest

    Thanks. A few points:

    (1) I don't need what you call insane zoom, around 200 would be ok. The
    rest is bonus, welcome but not required.

    (2) I take 28mm as beginning of wide angle. Now, one may say, what
    about 29 which is so close? And if that is ok, what's the big deal with
    30, and then 31? All of that is fine. If the rest of the package is
    compelling, one need not quibble about 27,28, or 29.

    Fuji E-90 is a good package which will suit many, but even if I accept
    32, the tele end is too short and there are no manual controls: so I am
    looking at *three* compromises. I have already determined that in the
    present market I need not compromise on more than one feature:
    wide-angle, tele, manual control, size.

    (3) I realize that given the market, I do have to compromise somewhere
    even if there are no technological reasons why a camera with all the
    features should not be offered (grrrrrr.....). I am trying to decide
    what compromise is most acceptable to me. (Of course, waiting is one
    possible compromise as I do have other cameras.)

    (4) What I need is one single camera, absolutely no attachments etc.
    When I travelled with my film camera (35mm fixed focal length) I seem
    to miss the wide angle just a little more often than tele, hence my
    goal of at least 28mm. I would *like* to have the option of manual
    control, but when deciding what to give up it would be one chip on the
    table.

    The size, everyone has to handle and decide for themselves. For me,
    Canon G7, Panasonic TZ-3, LX-2 would have been acceptable on size.
    Like many here, I am waiting to see and handle FZ-18.
     
    Nushar, Aug 21, 2007
    #6
  7. Nushar

    AAvK Guest

    YES but you can get those auxiliaries, remember? They would outdo what you need
    but give you what you need. You should download the pdf of the owners manual
    read what it can do.
    No... one of the principle of proper photgraphy, even given as a "hobby, camera
    must be able to take lens filters such as a polarizer, strong UV for long distance
    and sky 1A (across a field) and 1B (long distance atmospheric blue control) as well
    as neutral density in different strengths for light reduction, as well it must have a
    hot shoe but these days you can use a slave flash and a bracket instead...
    No kidding!

    Okay now, pay careful attention:

    You must sacrifice that glorious compact size for all the features you want, unless
    you buy a Leica M8 and that triple focal length lens they make ($10,000 for both).

    But the Fuji s6000fd and the better s9100 do allow full manual control including a
    focusing ring on the lens, s9100 being ever so slightly smaller, both giving awesome
    image quality and shooting raw. I checked for cameras on www.dpreview.com/
    using the "feature search" for 28 to 200+ - *not one* was a compact, as follows:

    Canon PowerShot Pro1 (nice and small, and gone)
    Fujifilm FinePix IS-1 (s9100 size, infra red shooting for police work)
    Fujifilm FinePix S9100
    Fujifilm FinePix S9000 Z (s9100 size)
    Fujifilm FinePix S6000 fd (mine, bigger than the s9100)
    Fujifilm FinePix S8000 fd (not out yet)
    Minolta DiMAGE 7i (gone)
    Minolta DiMAGE 7 (gone)
    Minolta DiMAGE 7Hi (gone)
    Minolta DiMAGE A1 (gone)

    ALL of the above are super zooms, is to say "SLR like"

    I think it would be a better idea to get a Minolta scan dual III and just use film, truly.

    What film SLR system do you have? (please answer that one)

    Because you'd probably love a Pentax ME-Super (nice and small, full control) and a
    28-200 zoom that ends in 5.6 (also small), Kalimars are famously sharp. The only
    extras to carry are a few filters and a flash. That's it. It would be the same size as the
    s9100, though a bit heavier. But that Oly 550 would perfect as it is smaller than the
    s9100, which is slightly smaller than the s6000fd. If you go into camera stores to see
    and handle all, you'll get a far better perspective.
     
    AAvK, Aug 22, 2007
    #7
  8. Nushar

    Nushar Guest

    : Okay now, pay careful attention:

    : You must sacrifice that glorious compact size for all the features
    : you want...

    : I checked for cameras on www.dpreview.com/ using the "feature
    : search" for 28 to 200+ - *not one* was a compact, as follows:
    :
    : Canon PowerShot Pro1 (nice and small, and gone)
    : Fujifilm FinePix IS-1 (s9100 size, infra red shooting for police work)
    : Fujifilm FinePix S9100
    : Fujifilm FinePix S9000 Z (s9100 size)
    : Fujifilm FinePix S6000 fd (mine, bigger than the s9100)
    : Fujifilm FinePix S8000 fd (not out yet)
    : Minolta DiMAGE 7i (gone)
    : Minolta DiMAGE 7 (gone)
    : Minolta DiMAGE 7Hi (gone)
    : Minolta DiMAGE A1 (gone)

    OK, now your turn to pay careful attention...

    You don't know how to use dpreview.com. Your criteria were not specific
    enough and their engine, seeing too many matches, cut the list off at
    10 items arranged alphabetically.

    If you were even semi-familiar with the market, you'd know even without
    dpreview that a few compact cameras do cover 28-200+ range: Panasonic
    Lumix DMC-TZ3; DMC-TZ2; Sony DSC-F828. (From my perspective, the first
    two lack manual control; the Sony is a special case because of price as
    well as weight.)

    Not only that, a few ULTRACOMPACT cameras also cover the 28-200 range:
    Ricoh Caplio R3; R4; R5; R6. (Again, for me, no manual control.)

    Look, I know my requirements. I have plenty of film cameras for the
    situations when they'd serve the need. There are good personal reasons
    why I am looking for a digital w/ certain features and no attachments.
    In search of such a camera I have almost done a dissertation at
    dpreview.com!

    The cameras you have listed are classified as "SLR-like" at dpreview.
    The lightest of this breed with 28-200+ is Panasonic Lumix FZ-18, which
    got alphabetically cut off in your list. If you wish, you can look it
    up directly or get to it by specifying the weight <500g. :)

    Anyway, I do realize that I have to make a compromise unless I don't
    buy a camera for now. I am waiting to look at the FZ-18 before making
    those decisions.

    I do appreciate your intention to help. However, your "wagging finger"
    beginning, manifest ignorance about the market, and the demeanor most
    reminiscent of a missionary preaching to cannibals were a bit annoying.
     
    Nushar, Aug 22, 2007
    #8
  9. Nushar

    ray Guest

    FWIW - I've found the Kodak P series to be a nice camera - I bought a P850
    last fall - refurb from Kodak's online store. It's not all that compact,
    but not bad; has full manual controls available; 12x zoom; saves raw,
    tiff,jpeg. May not be right for you, but might be worth a look.
     
    ray, Aug 22, 2007
    #9
  10. Nushar

    AAvK Guest


    This is not how to respond to people.

    And thank you for revealing "who" you are as a person, you worthless disrespectful
    cretin!

    You are absolutely mentally abnormal psychiatrically. There is a mental illness
    named " anti-social " and this a physical brain condition.

    YOU SHOULD NEVER treat people who work to help you as though they
    were a piece of trash that you simply use, and I'll never reply to you again.
    And if I ever do, it will be an interjection in order to cut you down!

    You are a complete and total zodiak weakling with a zero level of conscienciousness
    OR respect, OR appreciation for the kindness it takes for some to work and
    use their personal time to help you out. And in return, YOU absolutely have
    no valid opinion whatsoever.

    Didn't anyone ever teach you how to "human" when you were growing up???
    Or are you merely a Virgo?
     
    AAvK, Aug 22, 2007
    #10
  11. Nushar

    Nushar Guest

    : This is not how to respond to people.
    : ...you worthless disrespectful cretin!
    : You are absolutely mentally abnormal psychiatrically. There is a mental
    : illness named " anti-social " and this a physical brain condition.
    :
    : YOU SHOULD NEVER treat people who work to help you as though they
    : were a piece of trash that you simply use, and I'll never reply to you again.
    : And if I ever do, it will be an interjection in order to cut you down!
    :
    : You are a complete and total zodiak weakling with a zero level of
    : conscienciousness OR respect, OR appreciation for the kindness it
    : takes for some to work and use their personal time to help you out.
    : And in return, YOU absolutely have no valid opinion whatsoever.

    Funny how people who wag their finger when they obviously don't know
    what they are talking about, suddenly become "touch me not" sensitive
    when they are at the receiving end.

    All posts in this thread remain for all to see. Each participant here
    can evaluate our conduct for himself or herself.

    I am appreciative of everyone who offered sincere advice or opinion. Do
    you see anybody else foaming and ranting like you are? None of us knows
    it all, but we act with that awareness.
     
    Nushar, Aug 22, 2007
    #11
  12. Nushar

    Nushar Guest

    I wrote:

    : The lightest of [SLR-likes] with 28-200+ is Panasonic Lumix FZ-18, which
    : got alphabetically cut off in your list. If you wish, you can look it
    : up directly or get to it by specifying the weight <500g. :)

    At this point I have to say that the just announced Olympus 560 uz is
    also a candidate:

    <http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082309olysp560uz.asp>
     
    Nushar, Aug 23, 2007
    #12
  13. Living with a very nice film SLR, and a digital p&s, i decided to

    What you want is difficult to find, and not just because camera
    manufacturers are idiots who focus too much on gadgets & spec and not enough
    on picture quality.

    Because they're able to keep adding & enhancing features on P&S cameras,
    it's tempting to believe they can do anything. But the physical limitations
    of the small sensor size, *especially* for wide-angle, become the deal
    breaker. You & I are spoiled rotten, both of us by our SLRs (you by your
    film, me by my Canon 350XT). And we want those same features & quality in a
    P&S. And why not?

    Because it's darned near impossible to design a wide-angle wide-range zoom
    lens for a camera with a tiny sensor that doesn't display quite a bit of
    chromatic aberration at the wide end. Even at 35mm it's a problem (about the
    only real issue with my Fuji F10 & F30). Thus a severe limitation on picture
    quality that can't be overcome with all manner of added features (image
    stabilization, raw shooting, manual modes, etc).

    My perfect camera would have all the features you want, with slight
    modification. I don't need the super-long lens (100-150 at the long end
    would be fine) but I'd love to have a 24 at the bottom... but would settle
    for a 28. The wide range would be great because I take photos while riding
    my bike, and can't take a whole lot of time setting up my shots. Raw mode
    would be nice, because you've got more to deal with when correcting exposure
    issues. A decent manual mode would be nice, and I'd *love* to have a manual
    or fixed-focus option (because, when taking photos while riding, nearly
    everything of interest is going to be 20+ feet away). Also long battery life
    (the Fuji F30 excels there!) is a must. And I'd be willing to pay extra $$$
    for a great lens!!! The lens is absolutely the weakest link in the Fuji F30.
    One last thing would be reasonable moisture protection.

    So I want it all too! But for top-quality photos, I'm going to have to stick
    with my Rebel 350XT. Not because it has better electronics and shooting
    modes, but because I can hang a wonderful piece of glass on it.

    Sigh. If I'm wrong, and you find that perfect camera, please let me know. I
    want it too!

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
     
    Mike Jacoubowsky, Aug 31, 2007
    #13
  14. Nushar

    Dennis Gnad Guest

    Hi,

    I would also more settle with your Ideas.... But right now, I will probably
    buy one of the chdk-hack-compatible Canon Powershots. So I have the RAW
    Format... just most of those Cameras start at 35mm... So I might try with a
    conversion lens if that doesnt make it too big. I wait some time, so maybe
    the Powershot S80 will be supported soon, which will solve my issues.
    The cool thing with the hack is that you can let it set up hyper focal
    distance for you and run scripts.

    But of course after all, the hack is not such a good solution as some
    programs just don't eat the raw format and need a conversion to dng with a
    special tool before doing so.

    The Powershot G9 will also just start at 35mm :(
    It's really a shame for all Camera manufacturers out there, except maybe
    Ricoh and Sigma which at least have an approach to something different.
    (Whilst Ricohs Sensor-experiences aren't the best, Sigma just wants to
    offer a fixed lens, and not something like any Zoom)

    I'm in for the perfect camera too! ;-)

    - Dennis
     
    Dennis Gnad, Aug 31, 2007
    #14
  15. Nushar

    RPS Guest

    Olympus SP-560 UZ and Panasonic FZ18 begin at 28mm and seem to offer
    many things you want. Ricoh GX100 begins at 24mm.

    Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a
    "cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras.
     
    RPS, Aug 31, 2007
    #15
  16. Olympus SP-560 UZ and Panasonic FZ18 begin at 28mm and seem to offer
    Not exactly. Larger sensors dictate larger lenses. And larger lenses make
    for a... bigger camera. Darn, hate those simple laws of physics.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
     
    Mike Jacoubowsky, Sep 1, 2007
    #16
  17. Nushar

    Dennis Gnad Guest


    That's not really correct...

    There were also a lot of small pocketable cameras in the 35mm-film age, when
    there were no digital sensors.... And they were able of having things like
    a 3x zoom and things like that. The lenses weren't really/much bigger than
    of current pocketable digicams.

    examples: Fujifilm DL-270 ZOOM, Pentax IQZoom 115, .. just look for compact
    cameras at ebay

    --Dennis
     
    Dennis Gnad, Sep 1, 2007
    #17
  18. Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a
    Afraid the laws of physics still apply. I took a quick look at the Pentax
    you listed; at wide-angle, the max aperture is F4. The Fuji is even worse,
    at F5. That's how they got the lens size down, no magic involved. If you've
    got a large imaging area (either film or digital sensor), it's going to take
    a correspondingly large piece of glass for the same amount of light to hit
    the sensor.

    Small cameras, whether film or digital, simply cannot disobey the basic laws
    of physics. You can make the lens smaller (and thus camera size) by either
    using a smaller sensor or giving up an F stop or two.

    Perhaps we could evolve a digital sensor so incredibly sensitive that it
    could be very small and noise-free, such that a lens with a max aperture of
    F8 is all that's needed. That could really get size down! But then I'm told
    there are problems with such a small lens, due to the refraction of light at
    extreme angles (if I've got this right). Did pinhole cameras have such
    issues? :>)

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
     
    Mike Jacoubowsky, Sep 2, 2007
    #18
  19. Nushar

    Dennis Gnad Guest


    Yeah, of course the lens will let through less light, but that doesn't mean
    it's not possible.

    With a bigger sensor you can then push up the ISO, and it will be less
    noisy. Of course the lens will let less light through. So in the end you
    might have the same, if there wasn't diffraction.

    And I also think the factor of the lens letting light through depending on
    the image circle is not directly proportional to a sensor being more or
    less sensitive to light and being more/less noisy depending on the image
    circle it can capture.

    I think that it behaves more exponential at sensor size, but linear in lens
    size? I'm not sure at all, but to my observation it looks like that (at
    least as a rule of thumb).

    So, I think, a bigger and more sensitive sensor and slower (letting less
    light through) lens will be a better combination than a fast lens and small
    sensor. (also because of the diffraction, and yes pinholes can suffer from
    diffraction, but if you have a larger format camera it will be less)

    --Dennis
     
    Dennis Gnad, Sep 2, 2007
    #19
  20. So, I think, a bigger and more sensitive sensor and slower (letting less

    So you're proposing an extraordinary sensor that could work at, say, F16 and
    deliver great images. One thing's for certain; you'd have great depth of
    field! Of course, that can be as much a curse as a blessing.

    We need someone with strong knowledge of optics to help us out on this one.
    Anyone want to step in?

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
     
    Mike Jacoubowsky, Sep 3, 2007
    #20
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