Not allowed to photograph my daughter's 1st nativity play....

Discussion in 'UK Photography' started by Coolasblu, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. Coolasblu

    Coolasblu Guest

    The pre-school where she's at says that parents are not allowed to take
    photos due to current UK Law.

    Is this genuine ? Is there a way around it ?
    Coolasblu, Nov 18, 2004
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  2. Coolasblu

    Neil Barker Guest

    Absolute bollocks. There is no such law.

    What there is, is the creeping dirge that is Political Correctness and
    those that use certain existing laws beyond what they were originally
    intended for.

    What said pre-school will tell you, is that it's for "Child
    Protection" reasons - a perfectly laudable aim it may seem. However,
    things have gone nuts and I'm seeing it more and more at some of the
    places we go to take photographs. Quite simply, if they refuse to give
    us names for the children we photograph, we simply don't use the
    pictures and don't go back there again.

    I had one headmaster accuse me and my newspaper of "promoting
    paedophilia" by publishing names. I suggested he retract that comment
    sharpish and he backed down.

    The UK education minister, Charles Clarke, is on public record as
    saying that there is NO such law preventing what you mention. It is up
    to individual organisations how they handle things - most are quite
    sensible, but there's always the right-on, save the lesbian under-
    privileged whales organisations....
    Neil Barker, Nov 18, 2004
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  3. Coolasblu

    MJ Guest

    There is no UK law. You are being fed crap. I suggest you put a stop
    to this by getting together with the other parents, whom most, if not
    all, no doubt want to take photos too, and organising some sort of
    action. Like pulling your kids out of the play and maybe hiring a hall
    and doing it privately (but after the teachers have done the work
    rehearsing them!). Or telling them to tell parents who don't want
    their kids photographed to remove them from the play. If you roll over
    and let them do this to you in 10 years nobody will have any pictures
    of their children.

    MJ, Nov 18, 2004
  4. Coolasblu

    Kitty Guest

    It's 'law' in some schools, that's private property, and they
    can make up whatever laws they want. My sis isn't allowed to
    photograph her own kids, playing football on the school pitch.

    It's pathetic.

    Kitty, Nov 18, 2004
  5. As the school are relying on UK law and not making their own rules then
    there is nothing to stop parents taking photographs. If the school objects
    then explain that you're happy to have your photographs made subject to
    inspection by the local police - suggest that the school make the
    appointment for you. ;-)

    An "I've checked and found that it isn't against the law (isn't that good
    news?) so I've told all the parents they can bring their cameras tomorrow."
    would be one approach...
    John Cartmell, Nov 18, 2004
  6. Coolasblu

    Jj Guest

    We were discussing this last week - I understand some schools ask the
    parents to sign a form allowing them to be photographed. Perhaps you
    could ask this particular school to do the same?

    Jj, Nov 18, 2004
  7. --------

    Neil have you, or the paper, ever asked one of the schools, ect., to
    actually specify what they THINK that law is... and to produce a copy of it?

    If so, what was the answer?

    Just ran into the exact same thing this week at a jobs fair... journalists
    were instructed in no uncertain terms by the organisers that taking pictures
    of anyone under 16 would be a hanging offence. [well, would get them the
    boot from the premises anyway] In this case I was there but it wasn't my
    assignment and so I just ignored them. Think... two fingers whooshing

    Journalist-North, Nov 18, 2004
  8. -------

    Ask them what "law" they are talking about... specifically, chapter and
    verse, [don't take only the vague generalities they spout as "law" - make
    them show you exactly where it says that] and then come back and tell us...

    We could probably use a good laugh.

    Journalist-North, Nov 18, 2004
  9. Lots of good advice here already, but...

    The problem may be that if you do manage to make a legal monkey of the
    school's management, they are in a very strong position to make life
    miserable for your child etc. And getting decent evidence against them
    could be well nigh impossible.
    Malcolm Stewart, Nov 18, 2004
  10. Coolasblu

    Kitty Guest

    Of course there is! Taking photographs on private property against
    the wishes of the owners *can* lead to prosecution.

    Ask any newspaper photographer.

    If the school objects
    Kitty, Nov 18, 2004
  11. It isn't 'law' but the schools are aware of rulings which already exist
    in Scotland are coming into place in England and Wales.

    Basically, any adult who comes into contact with minors (under 18 of all
    things!) has to be cleared by criminal records disclosure - it mainly
    applies to charities, schools, etc but there is some talk of school
    photographers having a disclosure done for each operator - the
    disclosure is location or client specific, not specific to the operator,
    so if a photographer worked in Cheshire and Lancashire, they would have
    to get a disclosure in front of both ed authorities - or even one per
    school, which sounds incredible, but could happen.

    There is actually no provision in this for parenthood of one of the kids
    involved being a let-out.

    The photography thing came about from a specific instance which was
    widely reported in the educational rags and thus spawned two responses -
    copycat stupidity, and not bothering with such nonsense.

    The more general thing, of needing this criminal record disclosure
    procedure to be 'gone through', is likely to impact studios
    photographing teenagers but not babies or families, because it only
    applies when the minor is NOT accompanied by their parent or guardian.

    At a school event where ALL parents were present, it would not have to
    apply to anyone at all. But if even one parent was missing, it might.
    The saving argument is that the school is 'in loco parentis' but if the
    school then does the banning of cameras, that hardly helps.


    David Kilpatrick, Nov 18, 2004
  12. Coolasblu

    Duncan Allan Guest

    Are you allowed to photograph right-on, save the lesbian under-privileged
    whales now?

    Duncan Allan, Nov 18, 2004
  13. No.
    If they are like that then you do *not* want your child there in any case.
    Teachers and school administrators are up to their eyeballs in stuff they
    can scarcely cope with. Tell them that you've checked and they're wrong.
    Make it a positive "Isn't it great that we (make it inclusive)
    misunderstood it and can all bring our cameras? All the parents were so
    disappointed - but now they know that rumour was wrong they're really
    looking forward to the event."
    School-gate discussions can be very powerful - just don't make it *against*
    the school but make it clear that you've been able to help the school by
    finding that they don't have to implement an unwelcome ban.

    Maybe get Citizens Advice Bureau to back you up on the advice rather than
    rely on us.
    John Cartmell, Nov 18, 2004
  14. Coolasblu

    Neil Barker Guest

    Probably not....
    Neil Barker, Nov 18, 2004
  15. Coolasblu

    Neil Barker Guest

    Open-mouths, basically, falling to the floor.

    Basically, they can't, as well we know. One school told me that it was
    "Government policy", to which I asked them to produce said policy -
    they couldn't, just whittering on about "paedophilia". One
    headmistress, who was very anti this and very sympathetic to our case,
    gave me a copy of the booklet that some lefty think-tank had produced
    on these issues. It was no more than a rant against the media, telling
    them how evil we all are and how we'd do unspeakable things with any
    photos we take. It would make good cat litter tray liner.

    My newspaper group has a very simple policy on these issues - any
    organisation where we come across this and refuses to give us names for
    children etc will not receive any more visits from us. We send a letter
    to the headmaster explaining our position and should any parents wonder
    why little Johnny no longer appears in the paper, we're happy to tell

    Most schools in my area have more sense - they simply distribute
    'blanket' permission slips at the start of the school year and for the
    rare few children who's parents don't want them photographing, don't
    get photographed.

    As an example of how inane these 'policies' are, about a year ago one
    of my photographers photographed a gymnastics event at our local
    leisure centre - an event we have done on many an occasion. This time,
    he was greeted by a lengthy form to fill in before he could take
    photos, demanding all manner of details - as was also given to every
    other photographer present. Said form was filled out as "M Mouse,
    Disneyland, Florida etc". This was then just glanced at before he was
    allowed to take photographs. Just shows how effective that was, doesn't
    it ?

    It's an issue which really does make my blood boil and I will not be
    especially polite to those who try and force these views on me,
    whatever organisation they represent.
    Neil Barker, Nov 18, 2004
  16. But the school say they are making no rules of their own.
    John Cartmell, Nov 18, 2004
  17. Coolasblu

    Kitty Guest

    Hmmm Ok, I'd guess they're trying to pass the buck to
    avoid confrontation, or just a case of 'jobs worth'.
    Kitty, Nov 18, 2004
  18. It's more likely a result of cold-calling "who do you want to sue?" and the
    knock-on from 'That's Life'. ;-(
    John Cartmell, Nov 18, 2004
  19. In this context wouldn't that mean that no-one would be allowed to attend the nativity unless
    they had been vetted ?

    Tony Gartshore, Nov 18, 2004
  20. Yes. It's a red-herring. But I've heard worse in similar circumstances.
    John Cartmell, Nov 18, 2004
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