ON THE GRIDIRON WITH THE 20D !!!

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by Annika1980, Oct 2, 2004.

  1. Annika1980

    Annika1980 Guest

    Annika1980, Oct 2, 2004
    #1
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  2. Annika1980

    Alan Browne Guest

    Good potential there with the stadium lights providing light... did
    you consider shooting that slower (same ISO, smaller aperture) with rear-curtain
    sync?

    Could be cool ...more blur fill, frozen ball carrier.

    I like the ball carriers pose here...

    Cheers,
    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Oct 2, 2004
    #2
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  3. Annika1980

    Annika1980 Guest

    From: Alan Browne
    No, I confess that after the ball was snapped I didn't really have a lot of
    time to think about it.

    I've tried shooting using the flash as the primary light, but the results are
    much less pleasing without some ambient light. You end up with the foreground
    players nicely exposed amongst a sea of black. Of course, if I did this I'd use
    much lower ISOs.
     
    Annika1980, Oct 2, 2004
    #3
  4. Annika1980

    Alan Browne Guest

    But that's the point ... with the high ISO's and a long shutter you can fill in
    the BG while using the flash to freeze the action ... + motion blur. I think
    it's cool ... get tired of frozen players. Think about it before the play, of
    course...


    --
    "There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph.
    All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
    -Richard Avedon
    -- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
    -- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
     
    Alan Browne, Oct 2, 2004
    #4
  5. Annika1980

    Dallas Guest

    You're lucky that player didn't come over and smack you upside the head
    for using flash at a sporting event. What happened to the noiseless
    1600ISO? Why flash?
     
    Dallas, Oct 2, 2004
    #5
  6. Annika1980

    Annika1980 Guest

    From: Dallas
    You really don't understand a lot about this stuff, do ya?

    Maybe this little tutorial will help splain it to you. Here are two consecutive
    frames, one with flash, and one without.

    http://members.aol.com/annika1980/dumbdallas.jpg
     
    Annika1980, Oct 2, 2004
    #6
  7. One can only conclude that the flash assisted the Ref in keeping up with
    the play......
     
    John McWilliams, Oct 2, 2004
    #7
  8. Annika1980

    Mark M Guest

    Ya...He gets confused easily.

    But... Dallas is right about blasting a flash in their face during a play.
    This is not the best idea because it REALLY nails the eyes of those trying
    to concentrate on the ball, or even those pursuing the runner.

    This is why you don't see flashes blasting away on the sidelines of NFL
    games...
    I would wager they are forbidden.
     
    Mark M, Oct 2, 2004
    #8
  9. Annika1980

    Alan Browne Guest

    In most sports it hardly makes a differenence unless the player is looking at
    the flash when it fires... sideline flash shots won't bother anyone. Sports
    like basketball and hockey have pretty big flashes installed (albeit above
    looking down).

    I would wager that the game lighting level is so good (television cameras want
    high contrast too) that they are not needed and are useless for most intents
    when the play is 25, 50 yards or more away... esp. with digital cameras
    rendering magazine quality images at ISO 800.

    I photographed volleyball last year with two studio flashes helping out, both at
    play level ... no problems, no complaints.

    Cheers,
    Alan
    --
    "There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph.
    All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
    -Richard Avedon
    -- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
    -- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
     
    Alan Browne, Oct 2, 2004
    #9
  10. Annika1980

    ThomasH Guest

    Precisely my question! I think that flash does make sense
    in a stadium with all this flood light and at such distance!

    Thomas
     
    ThomasH, Oct 2, 2004
    #10
  11. Annika1980

    Dallas Guest

    Flash is a no-no in professional sports photography. You are supposed to
    use fast lenses and fast ISO. You did the latter, but not the former,
    which is why your shot looks gloomy. But what do I know? I'm just a dumb
    Nikon user with no professional sports shooting experience.

    BTW, I got accredited to do some soccer last weekend. Lost my cherry, so
    to speak.
     
    Dallas, Oct 3, 2004
    #11
  12. I really depends on the sport and on the venue. In football there is
    no flash mostly because a flash can't cover the distance.. same for
    soccer. In basketball, flash is the norm. The photogs put strobes up in
    the rafters before the game and remote fire. It's the difference between
    an average shot and a great shot often.

    I'm not sure about hockey though. Something tells me they don't use
    strobes.

    http://www.siphoto.com/?FinalFourRules.inc

    J
     
    Justin F. Knotzke, Oct 3, 2004
    #12
  13. Annika1980

    Alan Browne Guest

    Dallas wrote:

    You better tell all those professional photogs at NBA and NHL games then.



    --
    "There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph.
    All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
    -Richard Avedon
    -- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
    -- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
     
    Alan Browne, Oct 3, 2004
    #13
  14. Annika1980

    Alan Browne Guest

    The pj's I've met who shoot at the Montreal Canadiens games don't use strobe,
    but they shoot at high ISO. The team photogs shoot at lower ISO and DO use the
    strobes (which are permanently installed and use pocket wizards to trigger).
    The PJ's have access to the same strobes, but since each photog is allocated a
    rotating time slot to use them, it is too inconvenient. They need to shoot at
    will and hence go for the higher ISO which is fine given the end use of the images.
    That's NCAA, but I would guess that there is a similar guideline/rule for the NBA.

    Cheers,
    Alan.


    --
    "There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph.
    All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
    -Richard Avedon
    -- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
    -- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
     
    Alan Browne, Oct 3, 2004
    #14
  15. The reason why I didn't think they used strobes is I've never really
    seen a hockey photo that 'pops'. There are great shots, but rarely that
    have great contrast that a flash will give you (if used correctly of
    course). Contrast that (pun intended) with NBA where all the shots have
    great pop and I figured strobes weren't allowed or not used for whatever
    reason.

    It's bizaare that they aren't allowed to setup their own strobes. I
    wonder why..

    I have a buddy who coaches a local high school hockey team. He asked
    the school if I could shoot some film using a couple of alien bees. The
    school had no idea since no one has ever tried. They suggested I try a
    practice before a game. Not sure I want to go to the hassle of setting
    up the strobes, the wizards only to get no facial expressions since they
    all wear helmets and full cages..

    I have been thinking about doing something with multiple flashes for
    bike racing. I have all winter to think about it..

    Probably. That's SI's website for photogs. It explains what are
    suggested settings for nearly everything. I just did a quick Google for it.

    J
     
    Justin F. Knotzke, Oct 3, 2004
    #15
  16. Annika1980

    Alan Browne Guest

    It's presented the other way around, "we've put some big strobes up there boys,
    please enjoy. Share now..." ...also assures that the lights are not in anyway
    going to interfere.

    As to 'pop' a lot of basketball shots have a fairly dark background when shot
    from the ends and crowd is in the back. With hockey, the ice is white and
    borads are white (where they're not covered in adverts) and so the background
    contrast is not as great).
    Try it, you'll like it! The pro I did 1st communions for does exacty that, the
    only probelm being that the slaves fire whenever any Mom/Dad takes a snap. Can
    screw you up. You can use Pocket Wizards of course...
    Do you mean multiple strobes per image (multiple flash exposure), or just
    several lights? I've shot volleyball with two strobes in place balanced with
    ambient about 1 stop below... a little green cast but good ball trails at 1/15
    to 1/30.

    Cheers,
    Alan

    --
    "There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph.
    All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
    -Richard Avedon
    -- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
    -- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
     
    Alan Browne, Oct 3, 2004
    #16
  17. Hmm, I hadn't thought about that. You are right. The pop wouldn't be
    as great. I suppose then that's why photogs aren't trying as hard to use
    strobes in arenas.
    Which is what I am thinking of doing.. After some insane overtime I
    have some extra cash to blow. I still need a 80-200 and I'm thinking
    used AFS or a new Sigma or Wizards. The wizards are pretty far down the
    list though. I'd probably rent the whole mess.

    Did you use flashes or strobes?
    Several lights. I was thinking of setting up 2 or 3 SB-80's on the
    corner of the race course and fire them all from below pointing up. One
    on one side of the road, two others on the other side.

    I heard volleyball is a biatch to shoot. Tough to focus and nail
    the shot.. That true?

    J
     
    Justin F. Knotzke, Oct 3, 2004
    #17
  18. Great image Annika,
    It looks like you did in fact use rear-curtain flash with this shot - the
    mixture of flash light and ambient light gives a really intense feeling of
    movement.

    But... Is that noise reduction I see in the background? The grass looks
    like it's been put in a blender and then seasoned with salt and pepper.
    Sorry to keep pestering you about these technical things (especially as you
    do seem to love your 20D) - but I can't help noticing it. What might
    explain it is if this is a major crop? I guess it probably is, since you
    only used a 75mm lens. If you find this annoying, then I'm sure shooting
    full-frame will get rid of the problem (that is if there is one, or it's
    just me imagining one). If it's not a big crop, but you reduced the size,
    then I doubt it can be noise reduction algorithms, and that's actually how
    it looks.

    Duncan.
     
    Duncan J Murray, Oct 4, 2004
    #18
  19. Annika1980

    Alan Browne Guest

    Go used on the Nikkor, IMO, though the Tokina 80-200 f/2.8 is highly rated. I
    ended up not buyin a used Tokina as the "internet" told me that some have
    trouble with lubricant migration. (Bought a new Minolta instead).

    They're $25/day at Photo Service. (+15 for additional receivers).
    Interchangeable term. "Strobe" is by definition not really correct, but is the
    term one hears the most in the photography industry. Not sure why, but people
    seem to call the 'attachment' type "Flash" and the studio type "strobe".
    Believe me I took the easy way out and shot pretty wide with the 80-200 or the
    28-70 (And a few with the camera and 20mm above the net post at the end of my
    monopod, pre-focused (f/11) and remote cable release), but the flashes were in
    the wrong position to make that really work ... I'll try again this year ...
    maybe). I tried a few from the back, focus on the net and click on action.
    Works but not great. Catching a good defensive dig after a smash, closeup, has
    not been in my cards. (I only try this about once every couple years with my gang).

    Cheers,
    Alan

    --
    "There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph.
    All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
    -Richard Avedon
    -- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
    -- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
     
    Alan Browne, Oct 4, 2004
    #19
  20. Annika1980

    Dallas Guest

    I'm talking about sports here, not some arbitrary waste of time that North
    Americans mistake to be sports.

    But I'm curious about the NHL and flash photography: where do the
    photographers sit if they are using flash? Behind the glass? Could be
    interesting.
     
    Dallas, Oct 4, 2004
    #20
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