Paintshop and Corel

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Eric Stevens, Nov 15, 2013.

  1. Eric Stevens

    Eric Stevens Guest

    A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
    background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
    advertising firm.

    He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
    graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
    use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
    there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
    for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
    He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.

    He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
    caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
    to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
    2 exceeded the losses from group 1.

    Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
    prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
    higher once the introductory discount period is over. Outsiders can't
    easily tell without knowledge of update and renewal figures but my
    friends feeling was that Adobe would end up making more money per
    licensee out of their cloud software.

    He also said he suspected that Adobe prices would tend to squeeze out
    the amateur photographer (particularly in those parts of the world
    where Adobe prices are higher than the US). As has already been
    suggested here, he thought that this would leave room for others to
    fill the void being left behind by Adobe.

    Yesterday, when I closed Corel's PhotoPaint Pro I found myself staring
    at a pop-up telling me that as an existing user I could buy Corel
    Draw's Home and Student Suite for $69.99 as opposed to the normal
    price of $99.99 (These may be NZ$ in which case US prices may be even
    cheaper). Never having heard of Corel Draw's Home and Student Suite I
    went looking and found:

    http://www.corel.com/static/product_content/cdgs/hs2014/CDHS2014_Comparison_Matrix_EN.pdf

    Obviously the student's suite is a stripped-down version of the full
    Graphic Suite but from reviews it would seem that so much has been
    removed that for experienced users it is only somewhat better than a
    toy. Pity.

    Nevertheless, Corel seems to be under pricing Adobe and trying to move
    into the group 1 segment of the market. It is particularly interesting
    that they are aiming at students: catch and train them young and you
    have got them for life. :)

    I also notice that Corel is developing a range of products for Apple.
    Nothing much yet but watch that space.
     
    Eric Stevens, Nov 15, 2013
    #1
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  2. Eric Stevens

    Tony Cooper Guest

    First, Adobe sells Photoshop, not Paintshop. A mental error, but it
    makes a difference because there is a program called "Paintshop".

    Second, CorelDraw is not a substitute for Photoshop. CorelDraw is a
    vector drawing program. (I have CorelDraw) It is not a photo editing
    program. There is a package called CorelDraw Graphics Suite X6 that
    contains Photo-Paint, but that's US$400.
     
    Tony Cooper, Nov 16, 2013
    #2
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  3. Eric Stevens

    Savageduck Guest

    They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
    graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
    the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
    of the total Adobe market.
    The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
    CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
    $20/month right now.
    Yup! because there were/are users of CS3 who had no intention of
    upgrading to CS4, CS5, or CS6 for $200 a step, now they can jump to PS
    CC and get LR5 at what amounts to a bargain, and Adobe gets a
    subscriber who might have vowed never to sent them another cent.
    Actually Adobe has made the Photoshop/Lightroom combo more affordable,
    or attainable for that class of photographer than ever before. Now
    instead of having to find $600-$900 US for PS & another $150 for LR.
    all they have to come up with is $20/month or whatever the 1 year
    ticket costs. If they have already got a DSLR + lenses, or any of the
    cameras in a similar price range, and the necessary computer, they can
    easily afford the rent on the Adobe products.
    They don't quite explain exactly what those missing "Pro features" are,
    beyond the reduced content.
    ....and yet the CC will remain the standard and all those students using
    Corel products are going to have to make the change. Don't forget Adobe
    also has its student and education packages, also available via the
    Creative Cloud. So a school set up with a CC account would be giving
    students access to all the Adobe design tools.

    We shall see.
     
    Savageduck, Nov 16, 2013
    #3
  4. Eric Stevens

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Sorry about that. I should know better because I've got Photopaint. I
    always tend to get them confused.
    I wasn't talking about CorelDraw but 'CorelDraw Suite'. That includes
    all kinds of things. The current list includes CorelDraw, Corel
    PhotoPaint, Power Trace, Website creator, Corel Capture and Corel
    Connect.

    The situation particularly irritates me. I used PhotoPaint for years
    when it was available as a stand alone package. Then, in its wisdom
    Corel decided to bundle it with a whole lot of stuff I didn't want, at
    a price about 4 times what I had previously paid. That's what drove me
    to Paint Shop Pro. But now I see its available at a much more
    reasonable price and I might go back to it. It's much cheaper for me
    to get access to L*a*b* this way than via Photoshop.
     
    Eric Stevens, Nov 16, 2013
    #4
  5. Eric Stevens

    Eric Stevens Guest

    And in a year's time?

    And in Australasia?
    I'm puzzled about the Australian price. Every time I look it's
    different. Right now its low enough to convert me at the same price as
    you have just quoted me above.
    I think so.
     
    Eric Stevens, Nov 16, 2013
    #5
  6. Eric Stevens

    Savageduck Guest

    There is no indication that the standard pricing is going to change
    after 12 months. There is still a fair amount of ambiguity over what is
    going to happen for those CS3-CS6 owners who buy the special $10/month
    - 12 month offer (the one which closes at the end of the year). The
    wording could lead the buyer to believe that if they fulfill the 12
    month contract they would be eligible to renew at their current rate.
    Those folks would hope that would be the $10/month. However, the
    wording is ambiguous enough that to make that assumption would be shear
    conjecture. That bargain deal buyer could just as easily find his
    subscription doubled on renewal. So there is no telling whether Adobe
    is saying they would be able to continue at the $10/month of is they
    will join all others at the going rate of $20/month.
    For that you are going to have to make your inquiries of Adobe OZ. That
    is unless Adobe HQ in USA is controlling all CC distribution.
    They might be promoting the CC promotion package. The other thing to
    consider as far as Adobe OZ goes the CC software is not physical, there
    are no shipping costs, and they would technically not pass through
    customs. Unless the OZ (& NZ) governments figure out some way to impose
    various duties & tariffs.
    Perhaps they are still trying to grasp that concept.

    You are going to have to actually call and see if you can get a
    straight answer from the Adobe OZ folks. Remember, since you have not
    owned a copy of CS3-CS6 you do not qualify for the bargain sale. Your
    only option would be the $20US/month standard for the single module
    (which might or might not include Lightroom 5).

    In the worst case scenario, since you are a photographer who is not
    involved in serious design issues, I have a feeling that you would be
    very happy with Lightroom 5 with all it can do for you. I don't know
    what that would cost you in NZ, but it would give you much of the
    editing and adjustment power of PS at a fraction of the cost.
     
    Savageduck, Nov 16, 2013
    #6
  7. Eric Stevens

    Tony Cooper Guest

    If I recall correctly, Eric objected to using Elements because it does
    not allow one to work in Lab Mode. That's not a feature of Lightroom,
    either.

    If he is going to forego Lab Mode, he might as well use Elements. It's
    less than Lightroom and has sufficient editing tools.

    He's made no mention of needing/wanting photo inventory control and
    the keyword feature, and that's the only significant advantage LR has
    over Elements, and Elements has some tools not found in LR.
     
    Tony Cooper, Nov 16, 2013
    #7
  8. Eric Stevens

    Savageduck Guest

    ....and LR has many features not found in Elements including the ACR8
    engine and a very logical and smooth workflow.

    Again, we are faced with opinions and personal preferences. Personally
    I have discovered a need for Lab mode (yet), for now I have all I need
    in RGB.

    I have become quite comfortable working with LR and I can get 90% of
    what I need done with it. I know PSE is up to PSE11 now, but I have a
    copy of PSE9 and while one can certainly get most of what can be done
    in PS done in PSE, I am not particularly comfortable using the PSE UI.
    It is different enough from PS that I would only use it out of
    desperation. Also the crippled version of ACR found in PSE is not the
    same as ACR8 found in PS CC or LR5.
    For the Mac owner (that is the position I have to take here) that if
    pushed, I believe I would chose the Mac app, "Pixelmator" over PSE. For
    $30 it is a bargain, unfortunately, not available for Windows.
    < http://www.pixelmator.com >

    I cannot say which would be best for a Windows machine as an
    alternative to Photoshop and/or Lightroom if I had to choose between a
    Corel product or PSE. That might be where PSE would get my vote.
     
    Savageduck, Nov 16, 2013
    #8
  9. Eric Stevens

    Savageduck Guest

    Also, if Eric does decide to go with the CC program he should have LR
    in that package and the PS-LR integration is seamless and symbiotic
    giving him all the tools he would need.
     
    Savageduck, Nov 16, 2013
    #9
  10. Eric Stevens

    Robert Coe Guest

    On 2013-11-16 02:32:19 +0000, Eric Stevens <> said:
    :
    : > On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:34:42 -0800, Savageduck
    : >
    : >> On 2013-11-15 23:33:21 +0000, Eric Stevens <> said:
    : >>
    : >>> A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
    : >>> background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
    : >>> advertising firm.
    : >>>
    : >>> He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
    : >>> graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
    : >>> use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
    : >>> there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
    : >>> for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
    : >>> He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.
    : >>>
    : >>> He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
    : >>> caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
    : >>> to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
    : >>> 2 exceeded the losses from group 1.
    : >>
    : >> They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
    : >> graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
    : >> the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
    : >> of the total Adobe market.
    : >>
    : >>> Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
    : >>> prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
    : >>> higher once the introductory discount period is over.
    : >>
    : >> The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
    : >> CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
    : >> $20/month right now.
    : >
    : > And in a year's time?
    :
    : There is no indication that the standard pricing is going to change
    : after 12 months. There is still a fair amount of ambiguity over what is
    : going to happen for those CS3-CS6 owners who buy the special $10/month
    : - 12 month offer (the one which closes at the end of the year). The
    : wording could lead the buyer to believe that if they fulfill the 12
    : month contract they would be eligible to renew at their current rate.
    : Those folks would hope that would be the $10/month. However, the
    : wording is ambiguous enough that to make that assumption would be shear
    : conjecture. That bargain deal buyer could just as easily find his
    : subscription doubled on renewal. So there is no telling whether Adobe
    : is saying they would be able to continue at the $10/month of is they
    : will join all others at the going rate of $20/month.

    Is there any concept of buying a longer-term prepaid subscription to lock in
    the lower price? It might be un-Adobic thing to offer, but it would resolve
    the ambiguity.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Nov 16, 2013
    #10
  11. Eric Stevens

    PeterN Guest

    I asked Adobe that question,. The person I spoke with did not know the
    answer. I anticipate a return call.
     
    PeterN, Nov 16, 2013
    #11
  12. Eric Stevens

    Savageduck Guest

    Unfortunately no. I would love to have a lifetime $10/month
    subscription, but right now the one this which is no ambiguous is the
    12 month term of the rental contract and the offer for renewal at the
    "current rate" what is ambiguous for the purchasers of the promotion
    deal for CS3-CS6 owners is just what the term "current rate" implies,
    the "current promotional rate" or the "current standard rate". This
    gives this qualifying group a great 12 month promotional deal with the
    question of a possible doubling of their subscription at renewal, or
    the reward for loyal customers continuing.
    Personally the deal for 12 months is too good for any
    Photoshop/Lightroom user to turn down. Whatever happens they will still
    have their older copy of CS which qualifies them for the deal. If they
    are rewarded for their loyalty with a $10/month renewal it becomes a
    win-win situation for both parties as emotionally Adobe had lost them
    as customers, and the promotion would have brought them back into the
    tent.

    Remember this promotion targets that group of Photoshop users who have
    vowed that they prefer to own rather than rent, and they have bought
    their last Photoshop update, I was one of them. PeteN was one, he has
    been looking for something to replace Photoshop, Alan Browne has
    declared that he has bought his las Photoshop upgrade. When I bought my
    CS6 upgrade I did so believing that would be the end of the Photoshop
    upgrade path for me. Each of my upgrades CS3-CS4-CS5-CS6 cost me $200
    and I was not going to spend that ever again. With this promotion they
    have me back on the hook for $120 for at least another 12 months, for a
    taste of PS CC, a perpetual upgrade. My typical upgrade spending was a
    $200 upgrade every 18-30 months, so $120/year would be well within that.

    I bought the $10/month 12 month promotion last week and so far I am
    very happy. If they allow me to renew next year at $10 they have me
    hooked. If not I still have CS6 and I will probably buy the LR5 upgrade
    to my LR4. I really like LR5 and all it has to offer.
     
    Savageduck, Nov 16, 2013
    #12
  13. Eric Stevens

    Savageduck Guest

    Damn! did I write that one confusing sentence?
    It should read more along these lines:
    I would love to have a lifetime/perpetual $10/month subscription.
    However, the only non-ambiguity is the 12 month term of the promotional
    rental contract. The renewal of the promotional contract for owners of
    CS3-CS6, is what remains ambiguous and vague. There is not way to tell
    if they are implying that the promotional rate remains intact for the
    renewal or if the "current standard" rate comes into effect.
     
    Savageduck, Nov 16, 2013
    #13
  14. Eric Stevens

    Savageduck Guest


    Go on Peter, just get it, you can afford $10/month for 12 months. If I
    can afford it, I know you can. The worst that can happen is a return to
    your installed CS6 if you choose not to renew. That is how I have
    approached the problem, and how I have rationalized my decision to dive
    in.
     
    Savageduck, Nov 16, 2013
    #14
  15. Eric Stevens

    PeterN Guest

    If you don't ask, the girl never says yes. <G>
     
    PeterN, Nov 16, 2013
    #15
  16. Eric Stevens

    Mayayana Guest

    | Personally the deal for 12 months is too good for any
    | Photoshop/Lightroom user to turn down. Whatever happens they will still
    | have their older copy of CS which qualifies them for the deal.

    The whole point of such marketing is to get you hooked.
    They hope you won't be willing to go back to the old version
    after the deal is over. Meanwhile, if you found the added cost
    of $10/month worthwhile then you must already think the
    rental version is notably better than CS6, which implies that
    they can probably get away with a price increase at year's
    end, because you'll be loathe to return to CS6 by then.

    It's like cable TV promos that promise "only $xx
    for 6 months" without telling you the real price. Anyone
    who's not prone to lying to themselves will find out
    what the real price actually is and decide whether
    they want the product at *that* price.

    (Salesmen rarely cheat outright. They just help one to
    lie to oneself.)
     
    Mayayana, Nov 16, 2013
    #16
  17. Eric Stevens

    Savageduck Guest

    Perhaps, perhaps. That said I have my copy of CS6 and while I can
    certainly live with it now. Having a 12 month promotional "trial" of CC
    was tempting. I am already thinking in terms of buying an LR5 upgrade
    to run with CS6 as a form of insurance. So for now I will live with the
    Adobe ambiguity and make any decision to renew once their intent is a
    tad clearer.
    Yup! However, the big difference for current CS owners is, we will
    still have our original tools, whereas the cable subscriber who drops
    service after the promotional period has nothing.
     
    Savageduck, Nov 16, 2013
    #17
  18. Eric Stevens

    MI Guest


    One thing to take into consideration of this "one year trial offer" is will
    you be able to go back to CS6. I know that you can not go back in Lightroom
    as one of my fellow students discovered a couple of years ago. The class was
    using LR2 and he bought LR3. When he took his LR2 work home and installed it
    on his LR3 version home he discovered (and so did the whole class) that he
    could no longer work LR3 work on the school's LR2 system.

    I would be cautious of assuming that you can go backwards. New stuff
    shouldn't be a problem but if for some reason you want to work on an older
    photo you may not be able to.

    --
    Martha



    --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
     
    MI, Nov 16, 2013
    #18
  19. Eric Stevens

    PeterN Guest

    I would think that if you keep your RAW files, that would not be a
    problem. Especially since you can use non-destructive editing.
    You can also save as a TIFF, or other backward compatible format.
     
    PeterN, Nov 16, 2013
    #19
  20. Eric Stevens

    Savageduck Guest

    Yes the RAW files remain the RAW files, adjusted TIFs, PSDs, & JPEGs
    remain standard format.
    I can take a layered TIF or PSD created in PS CC and open it in PS
    CS(x) without issue. All of the adjustments made in each layer remains
    intact. The exception would be losing the ability to repeat an
    adjustment unique to the later PS version. For example, if I had a
    layer as a "Smart Object" created in PS CC and I applied the "RAW
    Filter" which is not found in CS6, I would not get the benefit of that
    Smart Filter in CS6.
    It depends on what he was trying to do. If he was bringing a finished
    copy of his image file to demonstrate his final result, he should not
    have a problem. If he expected to be able to engage in collaborative or
    incremental work on the two different vintages of LR he is going to
    have a problem.

    Each version of Lightroom maintains its own catalog system and the
    current version has to be upgraded & converted to run work stored in an
    earlier version, FOR CATALOGED DNG files and adjustments. for each
    version LR the adjusted XMP data is stored in these catalog files.

    For example, on this computer in my Lightroom folder, I have cat files
    for LR2, LR4, LR5 all living in harmony in the same folder.
    < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_370.jpg >

    Also, LR2, LR3, LR4, & LR5 each use different versions of the ACR
    engine making access to the nondestructive edits in different versions
    imposible. Only completed work, or original non-adjusted copies would
    be interchangeable.

    For the LR3 student to export his completed work to be accessible on an
    earlier version he would have to export and save as a JPEG, TIF, PSD,
    PNG, DNG, or Original. Then bring file he has exported and saved to the
    school's LR2 via memory stick or cloud service has to be imported into
    the school's LR2. He would not be able to move back through any of the
    nondestructive adjustments he made on LR3, you would only see the
    results of what he/she did and make further adjustments from there.

    Of course the school should consider discussing an educational package
    with Adobe.

    You can move backwards, you just have to go about it logically with
    realistic expectations.
     
    Savageduck, Nov 16, 2013
    #20
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