Panasonic Lumix G1 vs. Nikon D60

I am thinking about getting my first DSLR. At the moment, I seem to
be
attracted to get a Lumix G1. I had 2 other P&S Lumix cameras, and
they
are excellent cameras and I like them very much. One of them was over
5 years old,and it is still running with over 10,000 photos (only 3
MP).
I have not seen the Lumix G1, as it is not yet available in our local
shops. It seems to be a very nice compact camera. The sensor size is
approx. 70% of the APS-C DSLR, but it is over 6x bigger than a Canon
G7 P&S.
Then, I saw today, there is a sale of Nikon D60, with 18-55mm DX VR
and 55-200 mm DX lenses. All together (camera + 2 lenses) will be
about the same price as the Lumix G1. For a DSLR, I like the small
size of a Nikon D40x (or a Canon XSI). I sometime wonder whether it
is
physically possible to jam in a Nikon D700's features in a D40 size
camera. The D60 is bigger than D40x (one of my minuses).
I know a lot of readers here will suggest to get a DSLR with APS-C
sensor size (or even a full size sensor like D700 or 5D). However,
how
much improvement in image quality is for Micro 4/3 vs. APS-C?. I can
see the arguments between P&S and DSLR cameras never ends in this
newsgroup. Would the G1 actually answer the shortcoming of the P&S
cameras? My other question is whether image quality and performance
of
a Lumix G1 will overpowering the Canon G7 P&S camera, or about the
same. My Canon G7 is good, but when I shoot in low light conditions,
the picture quality is not that great. Do you think the Lumix G1 will
be much better?. I saw just a few samples in the Panasonic website,
as
well as a few photos taken from early buy happy owners of the new G1
in the DPreview's talk forum. I was impressed with the image quality.
I will use my camera for photos in everyday's life, no sport or fast
photography, and definitely no movie (I never use such features from
my P&S camera anyway). For the old SLR cameras, I used Fujica and
Konica. For medium cameras, I used Mamiyas RB67 and 645 in the past.
So, I am not going to the route of the heavy and bulky cameras (thus
my preference for a small camera that will fit in my relatively small
hand ... although I will always miss that depth of field when
shooting
with the medium size camera and the sound of the shutter when you
push
the shutter button... a deep, mechanical sound!).
So... is it a G1 or a D60 (+ 2 lenses) for approx. the same price?
Of
course, with the G1, I can claim/brag to have the smallest
interchangeable camera, the first time it comes out of the shop! I
like colours that produced from Lumix camera. although I heard that
the new G1 will not be a Leica lens.
Any comments will be appreciated. Thanks for the discussion!

 

Would that most questions were so simple.

You are clearly well versed in the use of different types, size, and
weights of cameras, so the move to a dSLR will not be a problem for you.
I would suggest that many people who have had a compact decide to go up
market to a dSLR and then never use it because (mainly) of the bulk and
inability to fit it in a pocket.

In that case IMO the D60 wins hands down. I am a D70s user and I
recently bought my wife a D50 (the very last in the DSG group.) She was
moving up from a 'prosumer' Konica-Minolta Z6 and has never looked back.
My daughter had a Fuji compact but at a family part a year or two back
she used my D70 and not only liked it but produced some superb shots, so
when she got her PhD I bought her a D60. The offer was with 18-55 and
55-200 both VR and boy am I jealous, it is a superb little machine - and
I've got big hands!! She loves it.

Having looked at the G1 spec it seems to offer a lot for the money but
to my mind has too many downs. Do you need all those bells and whistles?
It has interchangeable lenses but what mount? It says Micro 4/3 which
presumably suggests connection with Olympus (the only other dSLR that
uses 4/3 AFAIK) but if it is unique you may be limited to lenses
produced by Panasonic - for unique read expensive. 12Mp on a 4/3 also
suggests noise at higer ISO settings. It has an electronic viewfinder:
my wife's camera had one of these and I have looked through many others,
and frankly I think they are awful, especially if you need eyepiece
correction (i.e. like me you are old enough to need reading glasses.)
There is far too much info with icons etc that it is often not
easy/possible to really see the picture. On the D60 you simply have
aperture and shutter below the scene view. The other downside is that
LCDs, no matter whether screen or EVF, drink power, so you can expect
much reduced battery life. The D60 predicts (typically) in excess of
2000 frames per charge when half of them have flash!

This is a personal response, but my advice would be to buy the D60 and
then spend another £100 or so on a good compact with face detection and
anti-vibration. Make sure to get something with little shutter lag -
Sony, Canon, and Fuji are among the best - and you won't go far wrong.

 

[..]

Olympus, Panasonic and Leica use the 4/3 system.

I think looking at the prices I would agree with you, there's quite a
leap to the G1.

Historically the Panasonics have been very closely related to the
Olympus models, and as such don't really offer such good value. The
Live-MOS sensors used by Olympus now are also manufactured by Panasonic.

For more info regarding 4/3 and the Olympus stuff:

http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/index.html

It's also worth considering the Olympus E520, which is around the price
of the D60, and a twin lens kit is very competitvely priced. The E range
kit lenses are some of the best too. You'll get excellent sensor
cleaning, live view on the screen, and body based image stabliser (I
have the E510, and it works very well).

If you can forgo the IS, then the E420 is the smallest DSLR there is
(without compromising sensor size), and has face detection. You can get
this for under £400 in a twin lens kit.

As for the compacts, I'd disagree with the Sony recommendation. My
brother-in-law has a Sony that was about that kind of price, and the
shutter lag is horrendous (I'm not sure it's lag, or whether it's just
useless at metering and focussing). Not forgetting you'll be tied to
using their own memory sticks. I have an old Olympus Mju500 I stick in
my pocket when I don't want to use the DSLR, and that seems pretty OK to
me for speed.

But then I would take just what you read here to go buy either. Here's a
couple of places worth a visit for more opinions and reviews.

http://www.dpreview.com/
Have a browse in the forums too - beware of some silly arguments,
photography has some awful brand 'snobbery' in it.

And

http://www.steves-digicams.com/

This is a highly regarded review site, always worth reading the reviews
here, and check out the test images.

Good luck.

 

I have it on good authority that they will have a G1 review in the next
few days, and IMHO, dpreview is much more comprehensive than...

I've been looking closely at G1 too. I eschew DSLR because they are too
noisy - I value silence in a camera, and the G1 has no mirror but a
double/triple action f/p shutter [closes/exposes/opens] which may be
rather distracting. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on one.

I don't think the G1 will have better noise / ISO ratio than the D60,
but it may admit of cheaper faster lenses when the range is filled out.

Mike

 

Hey wow - you mean you're actually going to buy one and take some
photos at last?!

 

Since Panasonic make most of the Leica bits then it is logical that they
both use 4/3, so my original comment about Olympus stands.

I looked at the G1 spec and it does say 'micro 4/3 mount' so I would
assume it is not compatible with Olympus. Therefore you are forced to
wait for lenses to become available, probably at exorbitant price as
they will be unique for one camera, and of unknown quality. OK you can
buy Leica lenses which will probably have the same mount but at what
price?

I would agree, being an Olympus C5050 owner, that they make superb
lenses - as good as anything from Canon or Nikon - but don't they have a
plastic (as distinct from metal) mount?


On the compacts, the Sony W series that I tested were as quick as any -
can't speak for any other models. Fuji, Canon, and Casio (the latter
advertises shutter lag of 220mS) are the quickest, Nikon, Samsung, and
(sadly) Olympus are generally the slowest. My C5050, from button press
to picture taken, is around 3 seconds. Pre-focus, and taking is near
instant.

But these are all academic as the OP is buying a dSLR and they are
lightning quick by comparison.

 

Well... I must admit that I am slow!
Even now, I may still thinking about the Lumix G1, which is actually
not a real DSLR!. But, I am getting serious and I did manage to
download the 160 pages of the Lumix G1 camera manual from the
Panasonic website already!.
It is amazing how cheap the DSLR nowadays. I just saw in the store
that the Nikon D40 with 18-55mm lens is cheaper than Canon G10 or
Lumix FZ28. Again, I always wait for a bargain and perhaps I need to
wait for another generation for the G1 before jumping in. Perhaps I
should get the D40.

 

[..]

Actually Olympus have just released a firmware update so that a lot of
their existing lenses can be used - I believe you need an adapter
though. However, I do find it hard to see the point of a 'micro' DSLR
mount, surely it's just as well to get a Prosumer with a decent zoom.

Yes, the 'consumer' level lenses do, I have one on the E510, but that
doesn't seem to have caused any issues in itself. These new lenses are
very compact, and very light. My E510 almost feels like my old OM40 with
the 50mm on it.

Three seconds is a rather poor lag for sure, even my little Mju isn't
that bad. Certainly less than a second. My point was that you maybe need
to take that on a model by model basis, although I appreciate that there
may be a trend between different brands.

Indeed.

 

The Micro Four Thirds manufacturers believe that some people value
the sheer versatility of having interchangeable lenses without also
having the bulk and weight of a reflex mirror and prism.

The close equivalent in 35mm film cameras would be a rangefinder
camera system such as those from Leica, Zeiss Ikon and Voigtländer.
They offer optical excellence and compact size when compared with
heavy and bulky 35mm film SLRs.

The Micro Four Thirds cameras will offer an upgrade path from point
and shoot digital compact cameras to a system with the superior
optical and sensor performance of DSLRs but without their weight and
bulk.

The image quality will be far superior to "a Prosumer with a decent
zoom", and that's the point. People who are content with the inferior
image quality of most prosumer digital cameras will presumably
continue buying them.

 

Yes, I remember those, nice bits of kit.

In which case, they missed it by quite a bit, it's only a few mm (about
3-4mm in each dimension) smaller than an E420, and actually 5g heavier.
It's not going to save much carrying around, and it costs £200 more. I
like Panasonic stuff, but as a concept, I don't think this has hit the
mark, certainly not for the price.

Indeed.

 

I agree. But you should really compare the G1 with Panasonic's own
Four Thirds DSLRs rather than the Olympus E420.

The Olympus Micro Four Thirds camera is a quite different concept.
While based on the same principles as the Panasonic, it is much
smaller and (in my opinion) far more desirable. It should appeal to
the same sort of people who bought 35mm rangefinder camera, whereas
I'm not sure who will buy the Panasonic.

The sales of the Panasonic Four Thirds DSLRs have been pitiful; only
the "Leica" lenses and the Leica-badged version of the L1 gave the
range any credibility, and even that wasn't enough to generate a good
number of sales.

Still, the future of Four Thirds, if it has a future at all, depends
crucially on Panasonic continuing to produce the sensors ...

 

Very true, although the Olympus Micro 4/3 wasn't being considered here.

I think their problem is they just haven't produced a camera that is
significantly better than the Olympus models, or for a good enough
price. The L1 was basically an E330, but for a lot more money.

Possibly, they were made by Kodak as well for a while. I'm sure someone
will manufacture the sensors.