PANASONIC (New) HDC-SD1 & HDC-DX1 H.264 Camcorders (High Definition)

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by jerry, Nov 8, 2006.

  1. jerry

    jerry Guest

    jerry, Nov 8, 2006
    #1
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  2. jerry

    jerry Guest

    jerry, Nov 8, 2006
    #2
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  3. jerry

    Frank Guest

    On 8 Nov 2006 11:09:45 -0800, in 'rec.video.desktop',
    (High Definition)>,

    And for those folks who read the Japanese language, here are three
    additional links:

    Panasonic HDC-SD1 and HDC-DX1 (press release of November 8, 2006)
    http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/jn061108-2/jn061108-2.html

    Panasonic HDC-SD1 (product information)
    http://panasonic.jp/dvc/sd1/

    Panasonic HDC-DX1 (product information)
    http://panasonic.jp/dvc/dx1/

    The HDC-SD1 records to SD and SDHC flash memory cards while the
    HDC-DX1 records to 8 cm red laser Mini-DVD optical discs.

    Note that the maximum data rate supported by these two camcorders is
    only 13 Mbps. That's lower than the maximum data rate of the Sony
    HDR-SR1, which is 15 Mbps, but is slightly higher than that of the
    Sony HDR-UX1, which is 12 Mbps. All of these data rates, however, are
    well below the maximum specified by the AVCHD format, which is 24
    Mbps.
     
    Frank, Nov 9, 2006
    #3
  4. jerry

    Ken Maltby Guest

    Which is close to Mini-DV and HDV, but is there an AVCHD
    camera (much less 3CCD AVCHD camera) that will do 24Mbps?
     
    Ken Maltby, Nov 9, 2006
    #4
  5. jerry

    Frank Guest

    PANASONIC (New) HDC-SD1 & HDC-DX1 H.264 Camcorders
    (High Definition)>,
    I'm not sure what you mean by that, Ken. DV, whether recorded to small
    (Mini) tapes or to large (Standard) tapes is 25 Mbps, 720p HDV is 19.7
    Mbps, and 1080i HDV is 25 Mbps.

    All four of these AVCHD camcorders are 1080i, so the comparison, if
    it's to be made, should be made to 1080i HDV. The highest currently
    used AVCHD data rate of 15 Mbps isn't close to 25 Mbps, in my opinion.
    The four camcorders mentioned above comprise the *entire universe* of
    available/announced AVCHD products. Period. There are no others.
    Someday it might become a decent format, but not yet.
     
    Frank, Nov 9, 2006
    #5
  6. jerry

    jerry Guest

    Different formats for different people.

    PANASONIC offers two H.264 (MPEG-4) options.

    AVCHD = consumer format.

    "AVC-Intra" = professional format.

    AVCHD = Long GOP format

    "AVC-Intra" = I-Frame Format

    PANASONIC offers AVCHD to consumers.

    PANASONIC offers "AVC-Intra" to professionals.

    The AVC-Intra format is designed to be implemented with relatively high
    data rates

    These two formats are quite different formats even though they are both
    H.264-compliant.

    The "AVC-Intra" format involves "intraframe" compression at very high
    bitrates.

    PANASONIC will be introducing AVC-Intra capability -- as an option --
    for forthcoming professional P2 camcorders to be unveiled at NAB 2007
    in Las Vegas.

    This was announced in May of this year as confirmed by the following
    news article:

    http://tinyurl.com/qjtfg

    Also by this Panasonic PDF:

    http://tinyurl.com/ymvucg

    "The AVC-Intra (H.264 compliant) codec offers significantly better
    compression efficiency than older MPEG-2 codecs and can provide high
    quality for news at half the bandwidth compared to DVCPRO HD."

    "This bandwidth savings, without the compromises of long GOP
    compression, will offer advantages in storage and distribution as well
    as twice the recording time on a P2 card."

    "The optional AVC-Intra (H.264 compliant) support for the new P2 HD
    products will be available in April 2007."

    The professional camcorder model to be introduced by PANASONIC will be
    the AJ-HPC2000.

    Meanwhile, consumers will benefit from AVCHD.

    AVCHD is twice as efficient as HDV.

    This means you can cut the data rate in half and get equal or better
    quality.

    It also means smaller file sizes.

    Most of today's NLEs can already edit long GOP files (HDV) natively.

    They should be easily modified to do the same with AVCHD.

    The following software firms are already working on AVCHD editing
    solutions:

    * Adobe Systems Incorporated
    * ArcSoft, Inc.
    * CANON INC.
    * Canopus Co., Ltd.
    * CyberLink Corporation
    * Focus Enhancements, Inc.
    * InterVideo, Inc.
    * MainConcept AG
    * Nero AG
    * PIONEER CORPORATION
    * PIXELA CORPORATION
    * SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO.,LTD.
    * SHARP CORPORATION
    * Sonic Solutions
    * Ulead Systems, Inc.

    SOURCE: http://tinyurl.com/stb66

    In addition, the AVCHD format provides for data rates up to 24 Mbps.

    Originally, it was only 18 Mbps.

    But the AVCHD group amended the upper data rate to 24 Mbps on July 13
    as you can read on the following specifications page:

    http://tinyurl.com/ylc2za

    In an ideal world, use of the 24 Mbps data rate ceiling of AVCHD would
    be an exciting option.

    On the other hand, I suspect we'll be somewhat surprised by the image
    quality of the new Panasonic AVCHD camcorders, which top out at 13
    Mbps.

    I suspect the HDC-SD1 might blow the Sony cams out of the water because
    of the three CCD design.

    Plus, I suspect Panasonic may have optimized the H.264 codec more
    successfully than Sony.

    We'll know when CamcorderInfo.com and other Web sites perform some
    tests.

    Regards,

    Jerry Jones
    http://www.jonesgroup.net
     
    jerry, Nov 9, 2006
    #6
  7. jerry

    jerry Guest

    The official English press release by PANASONIC is now up:

    http://tinyurl.com/yeb6pn

    "Their high-sensitivity features also allow for shooting in poorly-lit
    situations - for example, as low as six lux."

    Amazing, if true.

    Jerry Jones
    http://www.jonesgroup.net
     
    jerry, Nov 9, 2006
    #7
  8. jerry

    Ken Maltby Guest

    24 is close to 25, when comparing to 12, 13 and 15.

    I was saying that the 24Mbps mentioned was "close to Mini-DV and
    HDV", which is 25Mbps. Which is also indicated by the second clause
    of my sentence, below, you so cleverly dissected.
    Kinda my point. But if and when such cameras are available,
    AVCHD at 24Mbps., they would offer a very good format;
    as "jerry" points out.

    I've been playing with AVC and it has a much greater potential
    than most see, especially in the seldom addressed HD
    (High Profile-High level) formats. Most people are only seeing
    H264 as something for their i-Pod or cellphone.

    Personally, I think a 3CCD, harddrive and SD media, 24Mbps,
    720p, AVCHD camera at a decent price point would be a hot
    seller, and a great buy. The tech. is there, the codec and the
    editing software pose no problems. Who knows the extra
    4Mbps might solve most of the "problem" with HDV.


    Luck;
    Ken
     
    Ken Maltby, Nov 9, 2006
    #8
  9. jerry

    Frank Guest

    PANASONIC (New) HDC-SD1 & HDC-DX1 H.264 Camcorders
    (High Definition)>,
    Agreed, 24 is close to 25.
    I wasn't trying to be clever. I'm a very straightforward type of
    person. I have little time for games. I genuinely did not understand
    your statement, so in an attempt to derive an understanding of it, I
    looked at it piece by piece. To me, it seemed that you were saying
    that the currently-implemented AVCHD data rates were close to the
    DV/HDV data rates, which on a pure numeric basis, they aren't,
    although H.264/AVC is a much more efficient codec than either DV or
    MPEG-2 as implemented in 1080i HDV. Of course, MPEG-2 as implemented
    in 1080i HDV is itself a far more efficient codec than DV.
    You mean that you already knew that there were no 24 Mbps AVCHD
    camcorders when you asked the question if there were any 24 Mbps
    camcorders? See, I'm confused again, but that's okay.
    Yes, "jerry" and his posts. Yesterday I added some brief information
    about the two new Panasonic AVCHD camcorders to my HDV Web page and
    thought that I was all done. Then at 2:52 AM this friggin' morning he
    has to go and post a link to an English language version of the press
    release and I, still being up at that hour, have to go back and revise
    the page again.
    Don't forget the Sony PSP (PlayStation Portable). I've spent multiple
    weeks of my life encoding video for that thing for a client.

    Two or three years from now, assuming that some form of hi-def optical
    media becomes popular for Hollywood movie distribution to the masses,
    I'll be interested to see which codec - MPEG-2, VC-1, or AVC - is most
    frequently used by the studios for encoding.
    Personally, I would push for 1080p, not 720p - cost, power
    consumption, and heat dissipation problems notwithstanding.

    And I think that 35 Mbps XDCAM HD solves the "'problem' with HDV", but
    it's not priced for the consumer, nor sized for the consumer, who
    often wants a camcorder which will fit in their pocket/purse.
     
    Frank, Nov 9, 2006
    #9
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