PANASONIC TM700 60P, VEGAS PRO 8, 9 (32bit, 64bit), and NEOSCENE PLAYBACK...

Discussion in 'Amateur Video Production' started by David Ruether, Mar 26, 2011.

  1. With footage from a Panasonic HDC-TM700 camcorder that
    produces very high quality 28Mbps "60P" files using a very sharp
    lens, I was using Windows XP 32bit with a quad-core CPU and
    4 (3.3) gigs of RAM with Sony Vegas Pro 8 - but lately I've been
    using Windows 7 64bit with Vegas Pro 9 64bit with the same
    quad-core processor but now 6 gigs of RAM with my 60P
    (59.940...) video for editing. I found little difference in preview
    playback smoothness among the above (the minimum acceptable
    resolution for seeing the video image acceptably in a half-sized
    preview window plus a full-sized side monitor is in "Draft-Full",
    which is the same as "Preview-Half"), but RAM previews must be
    made for reliably smooth playback with my gear and software. If
    there are no filters or transitions in place (in Vegas, the filters
    can be turned off easily), these previews form acceptably rapidly,
    with acceptable length for most "local editing" purposes. Since
    updating my hardware slightly and software somewhat (to the
    acceptable limits of my financial resources...) provided no real
    improvement in either preview smoothness for the format type I
    want to use (this TM700 produces GREAT-LOOKING video!) or
    rendering speed, I thought I would give Cineform's $129
    NeoScene (with 15-day free trial) a spin. Supposedly, it improves
    performance by increasing the file size (while interpolating color
    from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2) and enclosing it in an easier-to-handle AVI
    wrapper. Once I had it on the computer, I converted an 18-second
    file of about .66-gigs to a NeoScene file of about 1-gig (15.5X
    larger!). This took some noticeable amount of time for this single
    short clip, but it was still 60P, which is what I wanted. The
    NeoScene files were detectably inferior to the originals in
    sharpness, but by so little it doesn't really matter. Two things
    were unexpected: RAM previews took about the same amount of
    time to render as with the original material, and the available
    time for the preview on the timeline was the same for both file
    types for a given preview image quality selection.

    Now to the "nitty-gritty"... Without RAM previews being made,
    the NeoScene timeline playback, even in relatively low quality
    "Draft-Full" mode, was not at all smooth (DARN!). In the
    18-second clip, it "jumped" from still to still about 20-22 times.
    The original jumped about 15 times, so I guess there was some
    improvement with Neoscene...;-) Ah, well, given the (even though
    moderate) price, less than ideal performance with my gear, the
    file conversion time, and the huge (about 15.5X) file size increase
    over the original files after conversion, I think I will pass on this
    software (darn, I had such high hopes for it...!) unless I have
    missed something basic that someone can offer...

    BTW, the preview smoothness (or lack thereof...) with timeline
    playback of the original TM700 files was the same with both
    the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Vegas Pro 9. Also, the free
    CineForm player works well for playing my 50Mbps 1920x1080
    "60P" edit-archive MP4s (nothing else does). And, oddly, the
    only capture-with-conversion tool in NeoScene (as far as I can
    tell) is for HDV, which really doesn't need NeoScene for
    reasonably efficient editing.

    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Mar 26, 2011
    #1
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  2. "David Ruether" wrote in message [...]

    Oooop! I didn't mean for the title to jump out in red in the NG! (It takes
    a while, as in 16 years!) to learn the ins/outs of these things, I guess...
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Mar 26, 2011
    #2
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  3. Probably an artifact of your newsreader. It wasn't red here, although it
    *was* read :)

    Oh yeah - Windows Live Mail 15.4.3508.1109. You have my condolences :)
     
    Gene E. Bloch, Mar 26, 2011
    #3
  4. "Gene E. Bloch" wrote in message

    Probably an artifact of your newsreader. It wasn't red here, although it
    *was* read :)

    Oh yeah - Windows Live Mail 15.4.3508.1109. You have my condolences :)

    --
    Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Thanks for all three comments...! 8^) I lost my favorite news reader in a
    change to Win 7, and have tried a few since that I don't like - and this one
    just wiped out all the threads in the news groups and I can't figure out how
    to restore them. Computers: you can't live without them; and you can't live
    without them! 8={
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Mar 26, 2011
    #4
  5. Hint: don't type your response below the sig delimiter.
     
    Gene E. Bloch, Mar 26, 2011
    #5
  6. David Ruether

    Dennis Long Guest

    I have Premiere CS5 and want to combine edit the tm700 1080P files with
    (720/480)AVI files. Do I need to convert the mts files with say neocene to
    avi to accomplish this and then export to desired format?

    "David Ruether" wrote in message

    With footage from a Panasonic HDC-TM700 camcorder that
    produces very high quality 28Mbps "60P" files using a very sharp
    lens, I was using Windows XP 32bit with a quad-core CPU and
    4 (3.3) gigs of RAM with Sony Vegas Pro 8 - but lately I've been
    using Windows 7 64bit with Vegas Pro 9 64bit with the same
    quad-core processor but now 6 gigs of RAM with my 60P
    (59.940...) video for editing. I found little difference in preview
    playback smoothness among the above (the minimum acceptable
    resolution for seeing the video image acceptably in a half-sized
    preview window plus a full-sized side monitor is in "Draft-Full",
    which is the same as "Preview-Half"), but RAM previews must be
    made for reliably smooth playback with my gear and software. If
    there are no filters or transitions in place (in Vegas, the filters
    can be turned off easily), these previews form acceptably rapidly,
    with acceptable length for most "local editing" purposes. Since
    updating my hardware slightly and software somewhat (to the
    acceptable limits of my financial resources...) provided no real
    improvement in either preview smoothness for the format type I
    want to use (this TM700 produces GREAT-LOOKING video!) or
    rendering speed, I thought I would give Cineform's $129
    NeoScene (with 15-day free trial) a spin. Supposedly, it improves
    performance by increasing the file size (while interpolating color
    from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2) and enclosing it in an easier-to-handle AVI
    wrapper. Once I had it on the computer, I converted an 18-second
    file of about .66-gigs to a NeoScene file of about 1-gig (15.5X
    larger!). This took some noticeable amount of time for this single
    short clip, but it was still 60P, which is what I wanted. The
    NeoScene files were detectably inferior to the originals in
    sharpness, but by so little it doesn't really matter. Two things
    were unexpected: RAM previews took about the same amount of
    time to render as with the original material, and the available
    time for the preview on the timeline was the same for both file
    types for a given preview image quality selection.

    Now to the "nitty-gritty"... Without RAM previews being made,
    the NeoScene timeline playback, even in relatively low quality
    "Draft-Full" mode, was not at all smooth (DARN!). In the
    18-second clip, it "jumped" from still to still about 20-22 times.
    The original jumped about 15 times, so I guess there was some
    improvement with Neoscene...;-) Ah, well, given the (even though
    moderate) price, less than ideal performance with my gear, the
    file conversion time, and the huge (about 15.5X) file size increase
    over the original files after conversion, I think I will pass on this
    software (darn, I had such high hopes for it...!) unless I have
    missed something basic that someone can offer...

    BTW, the preview smoothness (or lack thereof...) with timeline
    playback of the original TM700 files was the same with both
    the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Vegas Pro 9. Also, the free
    CineForm player works well for playing my 50Mbps 1920x1080
    "60P" edit-archive MP4s (nothing else does). And, oddly, the
    only capture-with-conversion tool in NeoScene (as far as I can
    tell) is for HDV, which really doesn't need NeoScene for
    reasonably efficient editing.

    --DR
     
    Dennis Long, Mar 27, 2011
    #6
  7. What have you tried Dennis? I would think you can combine different file
    types on the timeline in CS5. I thought that was one of the big advantages.

    Gary Eickmeier
    Premiere Production Premium CS4
     
    Gary Eickmeier, Mar 27, 2011
    #7
  8. David Ruether

    Dennis Long Guest

    Actually I am having a problem with a particular 720/480 avi. It plays fine
    outside of any adobe suite program but when imported for edit it seems
    normal during "conforming peak file" process but hangs when this is
    complete. I think possibly the audio track is the culprit and have been
    trying to figure out a way to separate the audio/video tracks. I don't
    really need the audio. How can this be done outside of CS5? I don't have any
    other software other than WindowsMM. I am waiting on the trial version of
    Neoscene to see if it would convert and correct the file problem. I have not
    actually tried any other known good avi for testing the combined edit. I
    will try now. TIA Dennis

    "Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message


    What have you tried Dennis? I would think you can combine different file
    types on the timeline in CS5. I thought that was one of the big advantages.

    Gary Eickmeier
    Premiere Production Premium CS4
     
    Dennis Long, Mar 27, 2011
    #8
  9. David Ruether

    Dennis Long Guest

    CS5 seems to work with the combined file type and known good file. I realize
    this might not be the proper forum but when played from Premiere timeline,
    of course the avi is displayed much smaller in size. When exported to say DV
    avi, will the end combined export display the full frame and proper aspect?
    With CS5, what advantage would Neoscene converter offer?
    I am hoping it can convert the apparent corrupt file so I can get it
    acceptable to Premiere. TIA Dennis

    "Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message


    What have you tried Dennis? I would think you can combine different file
    types on the timeline in CS5. I thought that was one of the big advantages.

    Gary Eickmeier
    Premiere Production Premium CS4
     
    Dennis Long, Mar 27, 2011
    #9
  10. "Dennis Long" wrote in message

    Actually I am having a problem with a particular 720/480 avi. It plays fine
    outside of any adobe suite program but when imported for edit it seems
    normal during "conforming peak file" process but hangs when this is
    complete. I think possibly the audio track is the culprit and have been
    trying to figure out a way to separate the audio/video tracks. I don't
    really need the audio. How can this be done outside of CS5? I don't have any
    other software other than WindowsMM. I am waiting on the trial version of
    Neoscene to see if it would convert and correct the file problem. I have not
    actually tried any other known good avi for testing the combined edit. I
    will try now. TIA Dennis

    --This reminds me that I forgot to mention that in the conversion of the
    TM700 files with NeoScene, the audio was missing in the NeoScene
    files. With Vegas, it was easy to ungroup the audio from the original
    files on the timeline and copy them and group them with the NeoScene
    files...
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Mar 27, 2011
    #10
  11. David Ruether

    Dennis Long Guest

    Thanks David, I just realized neoscene conversion does nothing with audio.


    "David Ruether" wrote in message


    "Dennis Long" wrote in message

    Actually I am having a problem with a particular 720/480 avi. It plays fine
    outside of any adobe suite program but when imported for edit it seems
    normal during "conforming peak file" process but hangs when this is
    complete. I think possibly the audio track is the culprit and have been
    trying to figure out a way to separate the audio/video tracks. I don't
    really need the audio. How can this be done outside of CS5? I don't have any
    other software other than WindowsMM. I am waiting on the trial version of
    Neoscene to see if it would convert and correct the file problem. I have not
    actually tried any other known good avi for testing the combined edit. I
    will try now. TIA Dennis

    --This reminds me that I forgot to mention that in the conversion of the
    TM700 files with NeoScene, the audio was missing in the NeoScene
    files. With Vegas, it was easy to ungroup the audio from the original
    files on the timeline and copy them and group them with the NeoScene
    files...
    --DR
     
    Dennis Long, Mar 27, 2011
    #11
  12. David Ruether

    Dennis Long Guest

    After testing Media Encoder output, it in fact does not change the combined
    m2ts and avi scale. I tried scaling up the avi on the timeline then export
    but it looks like noticeable degradation? So what is the answer for
    combining these two file types and exporting to avi to achieve the desired
    scaling and aspect results? TIA Dennis

    "Dennis Long" wrote in message

    CS5 seems to work with the combined file type and known good file. I realize
    this might not be the proper forum but when played from Premiere timeline,
    of course the avi is displayed much smaller in size. When exported to say DV
    avi, will the end combined export display the full frame and proper aspect?
    With CS5, what advantage would Neoscene converter offer?
    I am hoping it can convert the apparent corrupt file so I can get it
    acceptable to Premiere. TIA Dennis

    "Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message


    What have you tried Dennis? I would think you can combine different file
    types on the timeline in CS5. I thought that was one of the big advantages.

    Gary Eickmeier
    Premiere Production Premium CS4
     
    Dennis Long, Mar 27, 2011
    #12
  13. --Yes [writing from a foggy state, so...;-], you are essentially manually
    upscaling Mini-DV to HD resolution (and also deinterlacing the video).
    This is unlikely to look very good, and likely only acceptable with using
    the best interpolating upsampling software. If the end product is
    720x480i on DVD, maybe converting the TM700 files to 720x480i (but
    what a waste of quality, and there is still the matter of the possibly
    different aspect ratios to deal with...) would work best(?).
    --DR

    "Dennis Long" wrote in message

    After testing Media Encoder output, it in fact does not change the combined
    m2ts and avi scale. I tried scaling up the avi on the timeline then export
    but it looks like noticeable degradation? So what is the answer for
    combining these two file types and exporting to avi to achieve the desired
    scaling and aspect results? TIA Dennis

    "Dennis Long" wrote in message

    CS5 seems to work with the combined file type and known good file. I realize
    this might not be the proper forum but when played from Premiere timeline,
    of course the avi is displayed much smaller in size. When exported to say DV
    avi, will the end combined export display the full frame and proper aspect?
    With CS5, what advantage would Neoscene converter offer?
    I am hoping it can convert the apparent corrupt file so I can get it
    acceptable to Premiere. TIA Dennis

    "Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message


    What have you tried Dennis? I would think you can combine different file
    types on the timeline in CS5. I thought that was one of the big advantages.

    Gary Eickmeier
    Premiere Production Premium CS4
     
    David Ruether, Mar 27, 2011
    #13
  14. Dennis,

    Also I wonder if you know about right clicking and telling it to scale to
    frame size. I have a few questions for Adobe about scaling up and down and
    maintaining resolution, but the Movement function is my most successful so
    far. Maybe my questions are more for Matrox. Still investigating the
    problem, much less the solution. The symptom is if I use the Matrox scaling
    functions, no matter whether it is up or down, with a large file or what,
    the resolution goes to hell. With the Adobe Premiere Motion function, it can
    scale (zoom) up or down and maintain razor sharpness.

    Gary Eickmeier


     
    Gary Eickmeier, Mar 27, 2011
    #14
  15. "Dennis Long" wrote in message

    Actually I am having a problem with a particular 720/480 avi. It plays fine
    outside of any adobe suite program but when imported for edit it seems
    normal during "conforming peak file" process but hangs when this is
    complete. I think possibly the audio track is the culprit and have been
    trying to figure out a way to separate the audio/video tracks. I don't
    really need the audio. How can this be done outside of CS5? I don't have any
    other software other than WindowsMM. I am waiting on the trial version of
    Neoscene to see if it would convert and correct the file problem. I have not
    actually tried any other known good avi for testing the combined edit. I
    will try now. TIA Dennis
    --You can turn off any track you want in any of the Adobe, or other decent,
    video editors so that its contents are not included in a render. To keep the
    other audio, you must move it (or the one you want to mute) to another
    track(s). It appears that NeoScene does not include audio in its output
    files.
    Also, if you convert from "60p" source files and do not choose something
    like "use original file type for NeoScene conversions" in the dialogue box
    settings, it will convert the 60p to 48p (beginning with 60i, it would
    convert
    to 24p) files. Swell... ;-) (Well, I don't like 24p much, anyway, so I
    don't care.)
    On the plus side, if I had my computer connected to my HD TV with an HDMI
    or DVI cable, I could play my 50Mbps 60p edited archive files directly to
    the
    TV for best quality using the free CineForm player on the computer.
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Mar 27, 2011
    #15
  16. David Ruether

    Dennis Long Guest

    To avoid as much confusion as possible, I would like to concentrate on this
    one problem first. The following is an avi file (or is it?) that I believe
    was captured (by what software I don't know) from a Sony 1080i camera. It is
    scuba footage from Cancun with the following properties: length 00:10:03,
    size 2.02GB, frame width 720, frame height 480, frame rate 29 frames/second,
    data rate 28874kbps, total bitrate 29898kbps.
    As I stated earlier, when imported into Premiere or any CS5 program, it
    starts "conforming peak audio" (or whatever) as usual with any imported
    file. But it locks up when the slider indicator reaches the end. Then CS5
    indicates it has stopped responding and I have to close everything down. I
    don't really need the audio from this file but must have the video.
    This file plays flawlessly outside of CS5 with windows player.
    I just evaluated with Gspot software with the following
    information.....Container: File length correct, Compatability note;DV Type1
    AVI, Multipart OpenDML AVI (3 parts),
    (18086 frames in first part, 0 frames follow)
    Video: Codec dvsd, Name DVC/DV Video, Status Codecs are installed
    Says it is already DVD format.
    Any ideas on how I can get this into Premiere would be greatly appreciated!
    TIA Dennis


    "David Ruether" wrote in message

    With footage from a Panasonic HDC-TM700 camcorder that
    produces very high quality 28Mbps "60P" files using a very sharp
    lens, I was using Windows XP 32bit with a quad-core CPU and
    4 (3.3) gigs of RAM with Sony Vegas Pro 8 - but lately I've been
    using Windows 7 64bit with Vegas Pro 9 64bit with the same
    quad-core processor but now 6 gigs of RAM with my 60P
    (59.940...) video for editing. I found little difference in preview
    playback smoothness among the above (the minimum acceptable
    resolution for seeing the video image acceptably in a half-sized
    preview window plus a full-sized side monitor is in "Draft-Full",
    which is the same as "Preview-Half"), but RAM previews must be
    made for reliably smooth playback with my gear and software. If
    there are no filters or transitions in place (in Vegas, the filters
    can be turned off easily), these previews form acceptably rapidly,
    with acceptable length for most "local editing" purposes. Since
    updating my hardware slightly and software somewhat (to the
    acceptable limits of my financial resources...) provided no real
    improvement in either preview smoothness for the format type I
    want to use (this TM700 produces GREAT-LOOKING video!) or
    rendering speed, I thought I would give Cineform's $129
    NeoScene (with 15-day free trial) a spin. Supposedly, it improves
    performance by increasing the file size (while interpolating color
    from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2) and enclosing it in an easier-to-handle AVI
    wrapper. Once I had it on the computer, I converted an 18-second
    file of about .66-gigs to a NeoScene file of about 1-gig (15.5X
    larger!). This took some noticeable amount of time for this single
    short clip, but it was still 60P, which is what I wanted. The
    NeoScene files were detectably inferior to the originals in
    sharpness, but by so little it doesn't really matter. Two things
    were unexpected: RAM previews took about the same amount of
    time to render as with the original material, and the available
    time for the preview on the timeline was the same for both file
    types for a given preview image quality selection.

    Now to the "nitty-gritty"... Without RAM previews being made,
    the NeoScene timeline playback, even in relatively low quality
    "Draft-Full" mode, was not at all smooth (DARN!). In the
    18-second clip, it "jumped" from still to still about 20-22 times.
    The original jumped about 15 times, so I guess there was some
    improvement with Neoscene...;-) Ah, well, given the (even though
    moderate) price, less than ideal performance with my gear, the
    file conversion time, and the huge (about 15.5X) file size increase
    over the original files after conversion, I think I will pass on this
    software (darn, I had such high hopes for it...!) unless I have
    missed something basic that someone can offer...

    BTW, the preview smoothness (or lack thereof...) with timeline
    playback of the original TM700 files was the same with both
    the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Vegas Pro 9. Also, the free
    CineForm player works well for playing my 50Mbps 1920x1080
    "60P" edit-archive MP4s (nothing else does). And, oddly, the
    only capture-with-conversion tool in NeoScene (as far as I can
    tell) is for HDV, which really doesn't need NeoScene for
    reasonably efficient editing.

    --DR
     
    Dennis Long, Mar 27, 2011
    #16
  17. David Ruether

    Mike Kujbida Guest


    My guess is that being a Type 1 AVI is your problem.
    Use DVdate (a free tool) available from
    http://paul.glagla.free.fr/index_en.htm
    to convert it to a Type 2 AVI and see if that helps.

    Mike
     
    Mike Kujbida, Mar 27, 2011
    #17
  18. "Dennis Long" wrote in message

    To avoid as much confusion as possible, I would like to concentrate
    on this one problem first.
    [...]

    You should have started a new thread rather than tacking yours
    onto mine (below) which is on an entirely different subject,
    namely NeoScene. That way, your questions would have been
    answered "cleanly" in a separate thread...
    --DR

    "David Ruether" wrote in
    message
    --With footage from a Panasonic HDC-TM700 camcorder that
    produces very high quality 28Mbps "60P" files using a very sharp
    lens, I was using Windows XP 32bit with a quad-core CPU and
    4 (3.3) gigs of RAM with Sony Vegas Pro 8 - but lately I've been
    using Windows 7 64bit with Vegas Pro 9 64bit with the same
    quad-core processor but now with 6 gigs of RAM with my 60P
    (59.940...) video for editing. [Etc. - See the beginning of this
    thread for the complete post...]
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Mar 27, 2011
    #18
  19. David Ruether

    Dennis Long Guest

    Mike,
    Bingo! You are a life saver. Thank you very much!
    Dennis

    "Mike Kujbida" wrote in message

    My guess is that being a Type 1 AVI is your problem.
    Use DVdate (a free tool) available from
    http://paul.glagla.free.fr/index_en.htm
    to convert it to a Type 2 AVI and see if that helps.

    Mike
     
    Dennis Long, Mar 28, 2011
    #19
  20. David Ruether

    Dennis Long Guest

    David,
    You are certainly right. A thousand pardons and thanks for your help as
    well. Mike came up with the answer.
    Dennis

    "David Ruether" wrote in message


    "Dennis Long" wrote in message

    To avoid as much confusion as possible, I would like to concentrate
    on this one problem first.
    [...]

    You should have started a new thread rather than tacking yours
    onto mine (below) which is on an entirely different subject,
    namely NeoScene. That way, your questions would have been
    answered "cleanly" in a separate thread...
    --DR

    "David Ruether" wrote in
    message
    --With footage from a Panasonic HDC-TM700 camcorder that
    produces very high quality 28Mbps "60P" files using a very sharp
    lens, I was using Windows XP 32bit with a quad-core CPU and
    4 (3.3) gigs of RAM with Sony Vegas Pro 8 - but lately I've been
    using Windows 7 64bit with Vegas Pro 9 64bit with the same
    quad-core processor but now with 6 gigs of RAM with my 60P
    (59.940...) video for editing. [Etc. - See the beginning of this
    thread for the complete post...]
    --DR
     
    Dennis Long, Mar 28, 2011
    #20
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