PC Magazine's Digital Input Device of the Year

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by George Preddy, Nov 19, 2003.

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  1. George Preddy

    Phil Guest


    PC Magazine is not exactly where I look for photographic advice. Do you
    view them as an authority on these matters, or do you embrace them
    because their misconceptions match your own?

    BTW -- They are often "off" in areas they should know: Computers,
    printers and the like. If they ever pick the "right" camera, it will
    likely be a random event.

    Phil, Nov 19, 2003
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  2. George Preddy

    mark herring Guest

    Here is what I just posted on the PC magazine forum:


    If you will do a Usenet search on Foveon and Sigma, you will see that a
    large number of people do not see the technology as a breakthrough. In
    fact, many feel that it is inferior in some pretty significant ways.

    There are facts (the architecture), basic theory (eg sampling, aliasing, and
    the relative import of color vs. monochrome resolution), and---maybe the
    most relevant---there are pictures.

    Random sampling of the material shows varying degrees of consensus on
    specific technical issues, but an overwhelming feeling that the technology
    is at best no better than the current Bayer standard. I think a majority
    feel that it is worse.

    There is one zealot who thinks it is superior, and he seems to have become
    the laughing stock of one major newgroup (rec.photo.digital). His own
    pictures have some of the worst artifacts I have seen since the early days
    of 640x480 sensors.

    While I appreciate that you need to promote new things to keep the
    advertising money flowing, I fear that you may have put your foot in your
    mouth on this one. I encourage you to do a bit more research and then
    publish a follow-up.

    Mark Herring

    (By way of credentials: I am an electrical engineer, amatuer photgrapher,
    and I design digital imaging systems professionally.)

    Mark Herring
    Pasadena, CA, USA
    private e-mail: just say no to "No"

    mark herring, Nov 19, 2003
  3. George Preddy

    Alan Browne Guest

    Alan Browne, Nov 19, 2003
  4. George Preddy

    Lisa Horton Guest

    Lisa Horton, Nov 19, 2003
  5. George Preddy

    Darrell Guest

    They only gave the sensor the rating, not the Fisher-Price camera it's in ;)
    Darrell, Nov 19, 2003
  6. The classic case of PC Magazine blowing it as regards
    imaging items were the first few years of Epson Stylus
    Photo printers. While those printers were revolutionizing
    photo output, PC Magazine was still touting color laser
    printers for that purpose, and dissing the Epsons.
    Stanley Krute, Nov 19, 2003
  7. George Preddy

    MarkH Guest

    nature >for a little inspiration. Foveon's groundbreaking sensor for
    digital cameras >does just that, operating much like the color-sensing
    cells in our eyes, in >which every cone cell senses every color.

    My Comment:
    Geeez, they are pretty stupid aren’t they? Since when did the colour
    sensing cells in our eyes gain the ability for every cone cell to sense
    every colour?

    Since they are so ignorant on how nature works, how can you trust their
    research on Foveon itself? Foveon sensors may be the digital input device
    of the year, but I don’t think the year is THIS year, probably not next
    year either.

    Quote from http://slate.msn.com/id/2079371/:
    wavelengths >of the visible light spectrum. The light that enters the eye
    fires these cones >in different amounts, allowing us to see all colors from
    white to black.

    They didn’t say if the cones were arranged in a bayer pattern, probably not
    I suppose.
    MarkH, Nov 19, 2003
  8. George Preddy

    PhotoMan Guest

    I agree with you completely Sam. I wasn't particularly impressed by the
    Sigma/Foveon output, so I bought two Canon dRebs. Couldn't be happier!
    (errr....unless they were 1DS's)
    Joe Arnold
    PhotoMan, Nov 19, 2003
  9. Gary Eickmeier, Nov 20, 2003
  10. Hi Gary
    In the Foveon universe, the 5M is the sensor that has
    1.5 million pixel sensors arranged in a 1440 x 1088 grid.
    It has 4.5 million color sensing locations, three at each
    pixel. Rounding up 4.5 to 5 gives the name 5M.

    Here's a link:


    Similarly, the PRO 10M is the sensor used in the
    Sigma SD-10. Link:


    It's interesting to note that the 5M datasheet talks
    about 1.5 million pixels, in addition to 4.5 million
    sensors, whereas the PRO 10M datasheet talks
    about 10.2 million "effective" pixel sensors. Marketing
    has clearly gained added power over engineering in
    the move from the 5M to the 10M PRO.

    Can someone send Foveon a ticket on the ClueTrain,
    please ? Fudging pixel counts only makes folks discount
    what is a potentially-promising technology. Or, then
    again, maybe "George Preddy" is in reality Foveon's
    marketing VP, and there's no chance that they'll get on
    the ClueTrain.

    Stanley Krute, Nov 20, 2003
  11. Foveon has several sensors used in various fields, the 5M is a scaled down
    version of the Pro 10M. The Pro 10M is the 10.3MP sensor used in the SD9.
    George Preddy, Nov 20, 2003
  12. Thanks. I agree. Might be an OK camera, but their concept of pixel count
    is not true.

    Gary Eickmeier
    Gary Eickmeier, Nov 20, 2003
  13. George Preddy

    Guest Guest

    Guest, Nov 20, 2003
  14. As I explained in detail in a previous post, this is not a 10mp sensor.
    It gives an image of 2268 x 1512.

    Gary Eickmeier
    Gary Eickmeier, Nov 20, 2003
  15. That is the resolution required by a 10.3MP sensor. 10.3M RGB values = ?
    George Preddy, Nov 20, 2003
  16. About 3700 x 2800 pixels.

    Gary Eickmeier
    Gary Eickmeier, Nov 21, 2003
  17. George Preddy

    K2 Guest

    Well they're certainly more astute than many a Usenet poster who can't
    even trust their own eyesight when looking at a major breakthrough.

    Foveon critics never really denigrate the clarity of the images
    because they know they look damned good. Instead, they do it in a
    roundabout way, like mentioning a few (often imagined) color
    artifacts, talking about 14MP Bayer sensors (which gather more data by
    brute force) or questioning the wisdom of magazine editors, as you've
    done here.

    K2, Nov 21, 2003
  18. George Preddy

    K2 Guest

    To that I would add this famous quote, original source unknown to me:

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

    Well, in this case I think it's more about people who've invested big
    money in Bayer cameras (as have I, BTW) and who need to find some
    rationale for spending said money. When visual evidence doesn't prop
    up the rationale, opinions take over in a big way. That's mostly what
    we're seeing here.
    And they look damned good to most people who see them. You are in the
    minority if you look outside this particular newsgroup.
    Opinions are not facts and opinions are highly condensed here on this
    I've seen what you folks call "artifacts" and most of them look
    imagined. What do you CARE so much that Foveon is getting rave
    reviews? That's the real question to answer. I think it's about money
    that you've spent on things non-Foveon and the sour grapes that come
    with seeing something better on the horizon.

    K2, Nov 21, 2003
  19. George Preddy

    K2 Guest

    This newsgroup seems populated by people with a preference for fuzzy,
    interpolated images using long outdated technology, but it's your
    choice. I'm pretty sure you're clinging to Bayer because you've
    invested big money in it already and lots of people FEAR change. At
    least consider that you may be suffering from that sort of
    self-delusuion. It's quite common in life.

    However, you shouldn't think of yourself as representing the majority
    of people who've seen Foveon samples or own the cameras.

    K2, Nov 21, 2003
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