Pentax K10D and DNG/RAW issues

Discussion in 'Pentax' started by Charles Gillen, Nov 29, 2006.

  1. The documentation that came with my K10D said its DNG output could only
    be read by the Pentax software that came with it. The DNG was unreadable
    in Paint Shop Pro X, the only image editor I have which "claims" to
    accept DNG.

    K10D RAW files could not be processed by the old Pixmantec Raw Shooter
    premium 2006, ver. 1.03 build 77. FYI I had already "fixed" that program
    to recognize RAW from my Pentax K110 (which I had bought as a stopgap
    only because my *ist-DS had expired just after the warranty did likewise.
    Patching Raw Shooter to recognize the K10D did not work.

    I simply don't like the Pentax software... what are you other guys/gals
    using to process the K10D RAW/DNG output successfully? Hope you found
    something inexpensive... I'm not an Adobe fan.
     
    Charles Gillen, Nov 29, 2006
    #1
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  2. Charles Gillen

    G.T. Guest

    If true that kind of defeats the purpose of providing DNG files.

    Greg
     
    G.T., Nov 29, 2006
    #2
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  3. Charles Gillen

    Paul Mitchum Guest

    You might try dcraw.

    <http://www.insflug.org/raw/software/download/windows.php3>
     
    Paul Mitchum, Nov 29, 2006
    #3
  4. Charles Gillen

    John Bean Guest

    It's wrong.
    Well all versions of ACR since 2.4 read it, but since you're
    not an Adobe fan try Silkypix - which also reads it just
    fine. There's a free version too.
     
    John Bean, Nov 29, 2006
    #4
  5. LOL! Please tell me it isn't so? What a kick in the ass this would be.
    It's best to use CS2 with native RAW and not screw with DNG since there is
    no real world benefits.







    Rita
     
    Rita Ä Berkowitz, Nov 29, 2006
    #5
  6. Charles Gillen

    John Bean Guest

    It isn't so.
     
    John Bean, Nov 29, 2006
    #6
  7. Charles Gillen

    Pete D Guest

    Real world benefit is that PS supports DNG but does not use the new RAWs
    yet.
     
    Pete D, Nov 29, 2006
    #7
  8. Charles Gillen

    John Francis Guest

    Unfortunately it very much depends on the application writer.

    Some applications (such as Raw Shooter, IIRC) only offer very
    rudimentary DNG support; they are prepared to accept files in
    the DNG format, but only for camera models for which they have
    already provided native RAW support (PEFs, in the Pentax case).
    Other applications are actually prepared to go to the trouble
    of reading the metadata from the DNG, and using those fields
    to decide how to unravel the sensor data. These applications
    are quite capable of reading DNG files from cameras that were
    not released at the time the software was written (provided,
    of course, that the data layout was similar to known models).
     
    John Francis, Nov 29, 2006
    #8
  9. Charles Gillen

    Hebee Jeebes Guest

    Lightroom and ACR (Adobe Camera RAW) will open the K10Ds DNG files. However,
    it doesn't get something's right and there are reports of increased noise
    and noise banding. Basically for now you either accept the noise/banding
    issue and remove it with a noise reduction program or your use the software
    that came with the camera. Adobe will release an update probably sometime Q1
    next year maybe sooner. They pushed out an update for the new Canon Rebel,
    Sony Alpha, etc. much sooner than they normally would have. Maybe they will
    do the same for the Pentax.

    R
     
    Hebee Jeebes, Nov 29, 2006
    #9
  10. Charles Gillen

    Hebee Jeebes Guest

    The Silkypix web site only mentions support for the K110. Not the 100 or the
    10.

    R
     
    Hebee Jeebes, Nov 29, 2006
    #10
  11. Charles Gillen

    John Bean Guest

    It doesn't matter - it supports DNG from the K10D which is
    what was being discussed. Try it.
     
    John Bean, Nov 29, 2006
    #11
  12. Charles Gillen

    Pete D Guest

    I would be amazed if they did, everyone is always extra slow to support
    Pentax.
     
    Pete D, Nov 29, 2006
    #12
  13. The documentation that came with my K10D said its DNG output could
    It is partially so. Althought the theory was that DNG would be
    universal, the reality is that quite a few software programs are making
    it their policy to only support DNG's from cameras whose RAW files they
    understand, because there is still too much proprietary and/or
    camera-specific stuff even in DNG to get good results if you don't
    understand how the file was created.

    --------------
    Marc Sabatella


    Music, art, & educational materials
    Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
    http://www.outsideshore.com/
     
    Marc Sabatella, Nov 29, 2006
    #13
  14. Charles Gillen

    John Bean Guest

    No it's not. The claim was that the DNG could be read only
    with the supplied Pentax software. That simply isn't true.

    That doesn't make the claim true, since there are also quite
    a few software programs (ACR, Silkypix, DCRaw for example)
    that correctly read the DNGs from completely "unknown"
    cameras like the K10D. It isn't DNG that's the problem but
    sloppy implementations that claim to support it but support
    only a very limited subset instead.
     
    John Bean, Nov 29, 2006
    #14
  15. This does make a lot of sense and was the consensus of the group discussion
    we had a while back on DNG and converting files to DNG for long-term
    storage. What you say is exactly true. This is why it's best to shoot
    native RAW and use the manufacturer's RAW converter or CS2. It's beyond
    foolishness to convert native RAW to DNG for any reason. There isn't a
    professional photographer alive that does it. Of course, some hobbyist or
    novice will tell you that DNG is the best thing next to doing it doggy
    style.







    Rita
     
    Rita Ä Berkowitz, Nov 29, 2006
    #15
  16. Charles Gillen

    John Francis Guest

    I agree with you up to this point ...
    I disagree, though, as to this being the major reason for the lack
    of support for DNGs. It's been my impression that the majority of
    the applications that only offer the restricted DNG format support
    don't process much, if any, of the camera-specific information;
    they have built-in camera data for known models, and have simply
    added a way to read the raw sensor data from a DNG container
    rather than from the manufacturers private data format. That's
    the only data they extract from any RAW file - no metadata at all.
     
    John Francis, Nov 29, 2006
    #16
  17. Thanks John. SilkyPix Free did handle the K10D DNG easily, and did the
    same for the K10D PEF after initially protesting that camera was not
    fully supported. Free version seems to work fine, though I have to
    retrain myself to a new GUI and away from Raw Shooter. FYI, the latest
    Pentax software for the K10D claims to be based on SilkyPix, but the
    implementation is far from as good.

    I've never known your advice to fail :^)
     
    Charles Gillen, Nov 29, 2006
    #17
  18. Charles Gillen

    Hebee Jeebes Guest

    Well it really doesn't make a difference if you can read a DNG file from an
    unsupported camera or not. The fact that so many people are confused and
    that there is so much yes you can, no you can't. Only goes to show that once
    again Adobe has done a fine job making something of there crystal clear.

    R
     
    Hebee Jeebes, Nov 30, 2006
    #18
  19. The DNG was
    I agree, that much isn't true. But assumed "it" above referred to more
    than just that - also to the claim that Paint Shop Pro X could not read
    it, and the general comments and implications about the limitations in
    universal of DNG files. It *is* true that it is not as univeral as we
    have been lead to believe, and it *is* true that this fact kind of
    defeats the purpose of DNG.
    I'm not sure I agree with this, either. I don't think it is only
    "sloppiness" that results in decisions not to support unknown DNG's. It
    is a veyr real fact of life that vendors can put all sorts of stuff into
    their RAW data that a program that is not familiar with that particular
    format would not have any way of knowing how to interpret. Sure, you
    can successfully construct some sort of an image in all cases, but how
    "correct" that image is might be another matter. I am glad there exist
    programs that will indeed at least give you some sort of image, but it
    concerns me that a program may not be interpreting the image as well as
    it could be if it understood the native format of the given camera.
    This suggests that simply throwing away one's RAW files after conversion
    to DNG - or using DNG straight from the camera if supported - in the
    hopes that this means all programs will forever be able to completely
    understand everything about your image is perhaps a bit misguided.

    ---------------
    Marc Sabatella


    Music, art, & educational materials
    Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
    http://www.outsideshore.com/
     
    Marc Sabatella, Nov 30, 2006
    #19
  20. because there is still too much proprietary and/or
    I would also say I overstated the case in claiming there is too much
    proprietary stuff to get "good" results. Of course you can still get
    "good" results. Optimal is another matter.
    I guess I'm not sure how this differs significantly from what I wrote;
    perhaps there is some subtlety I am missing, though.

    ---------------
    Marc Sabatella


    Music, art, & educational materials
    Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
    http://www.outsideshore.com/
     
    Marc Sabatella, Nov 30, 2006
    #20
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