Photographing a motor sport event - BANNED

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by Borked Pseudo Mailed, Dec 11, 2008.

  1. Borked Pseudo Mailed, Dec 11, 2008
    #1
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  2. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    ^Tems^ Guest

    Link is dead.

    "They don't let you in the track for free" Is he suggesting any profit
    he makes off the photos he will contribute to paying the staff at the
    track. Imagine everyone had this attitude. You'd have 35000 people on
    the hill with their camera's out.

    Maybe if he had read the terms of entry he would know he can't sell his
    photos.
     
    ^Tems^, Dec 11, 2008
    #2
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  3. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    tony cooper Guest

    You've probably never really seen real Chicago political antics. When
    I lived in the area, Paul Powell ran for - and was re-elected to
    office of - Secretary of State while under indictment. They found
    shoeboxes crammed with $800,000 of license plate registration money in
    his closet. P.J. "Parky" Cullerton, Alderman and Cook County Tax
    Assessor, never even denied being crooked. His insurance companies
    raked in the dough from businesses who would trade their insurance
    business for lower assessments.
     
    tony cooper, Dec 12, 2008
    #3
  4. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    N Guest



    I notice you have pictures taken around Sydney Harbour on your site. I hope
    you have permission if you intend to sell them.

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/shfar2006502/s4.html
     
    N, Dec 12, 2008
    #4
  5. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    Doug Jewell Guest

    Hmmm.. Curious wording
    "(b) use any audio, loudspeaker or broadcasting equipment or
    camera (whether photographic, cinematic or video), for a
    commercial purpose"
    so if I use my camera for a non-commercial purpose, ie -
    taking photos for my own personal use, then it's all fine
    and dandy.
    What happens then if a year down the track I decide to sell
    those photos - I didn't have a commercial purpose when I
    used the camera at the location.
     
    Doug Jewell, Dec 12, 2008
    #5
  6. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    N Guest


    Yes, it's quite weird. They couldn't possibly police non commercial
    photography or we'd need to find another penal colony.
     
    N, Dec 12, 2008
    #6
  7. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    Walter Banks Guest

    I used to know a man who owned a construction firm that
    did road construction in both Ontario and Quebec. He recalled
    that in the old days when the minister in Quebec said pay my
    brother you had just been given the contract. In Ontario when
    the man said pay my brother it meant that your bid would be
    considered with the rest of the companies that paid his brother.

    w..
     
    Walter Banks, Dec 12, 2008
    #7
  8. If you go to France and take an image of the the Eiffel Tower, you hold
    copyright in that image. But France imposes conditions and terms on
    photographs of the Eiffel Tower taken at night:
    http://www.tour-eiffel.fr/teiffel/uk/pratique/faq/index.html

    As for "that darn tree," Pebble Beach Company can't copyright your image
    of the tree. But the key part of your statement is that the company owns
    the 17-mile drive and the surrounding property. When you pay your fee
    for being allowed on the property, you also agree to their conditions.
    One of those conditions is on commercial use of your photography.

    The issue is complicated by trademark law. Pebble Beach Company uses
    the tree in its trademark, and has been very aggressive in attempting
    to enforce the trademark.
     
    Michael Benveniste, Dec 12, 2008
    #8
  9. True, since a photograph is a tangible object and a trademark is an
    intangible property right. However, the USPTO accepts photographs
    as "clear drawings" of marks and U.S. courts have held that a
    commercial use of a photograph can infringe a trademark.
    Not a problem for Pebble Beach Company. They use the trademark
    regularly and have since 1919, including on the collateral material you
    get when you pay for your ticket.

    To see such current use, simply visit:
    http://www.pebblebeach.com/pbstore/
    Incorrect. U.S. courts typically apply an 8-part test, of which
    relatedness of the goods and services is only one factor. If
    "relevant consumers are likely to believe that the products or
    services offered by the parties are affiliated in some way" then
    a trademark violation can occur.

    For example, Chuck Yeager does not sell or endorse cell phones.
    Yet earlier this year, a federal court in the Eastern District of
    California allowed his lawsuit to proceed against Cingular,
    including the counts of alleged trademark infringement, based on
    that company's use of Yeager's name and image in an advertisement.

    Nor is this much of a problem for Pebble Beach Corporation, since they
    do sell photographs and prints, including photos of that darned tree.
    In fact, they license the mark for everything from shot glasses to
    shirts to floor mats.

    This is hardly a new case. Pebble Beach Company and its
    predecessors have been taking this stand for over 18 years:
    See:
    http://snipurl.com/7ve4k [query_nytimes_com]
     
    Michael Benveniste, Dec 12, 2008
    #9
  10. Not quite. The company that operates the tower claims that the _lighting_ at
    If you want an example of where the French copyrights and protection over
    their national monuments was an issue, look at the computer game Red Alert
    2, the makers wanted to have the Eiffel Tower in it but they couldn't (so
    they had to make something that looked not like the Eiffel Tower).
    Admittedly, the designers of that game planned to have the Eiffel Tower act
    as a giant Tesla weapon that shot lightning bolts at people so the French
    government may have had a good argument in that case :)
     
    Jonathan Wilson, Dec 13, 2008
    #10
  11. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    tony cooper Guest

    Not so. Anyone who follows golf knows Pebble Beach. I'd recognize a
    shirt or a cap with the logo on it, and I've never been to Pebble
    Beach. It is arguably the most famous golf place in the US. I would
    bet that golfers in any country in the world are familiar with Pebble
    Beach, if only from photographs and television coverage. That
    familiarity extends to Pebble Beach's logo.

    Pebble Beach is not just a single golf course, though. The complex
    includes Pebble Beach, Spyglass, Del Monte, and Spanish Bay. The tree
    logo is used for all of them.
    Most people seeing
     
    tony cooper, Dec 13, 2008
    #11
  12. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    tony cooper Guest

    True, but you said: "They are essentially unknown outside their local
    area, however, so the geographic extent of their trademark is
    extremely limited."

    Whatever number the minority makes up, golf has a following around the
    world.
    You have any idea of how many people don't know what a "dslr" is? The
    civilized world is made up of people who have an interest in certain
    things that other people have no knowledge about or interest in.

    What you are not familiar with is no indication of what others are, or
    are not, not interested in.
     
    tony cooper, Dec 13, 2008
    #12
  13. I love refuting argument by assertion.

    Besides the golf courses, 17 Mile Drive is a major tourist attraction,
    and the area draws an estimated 6 million visitors a year. In the
    Pebble Beach Pro-Am Tournament, which also uses the tree as part of
    the trademark, attracts an international television audience of about
    8 million viewers for the final round.

    At least two courts have recognized that the Pebble Beach marks are
    famous ones. Your own ignorance is irrelevant.
    Wrong both on the facts and the law. Nothing in trademark law claims
    that a likelihood of confusion exists for everyone, only that relevant
    consumers. I doubt the "vast majority of the population" would
    recognize 95% of the enforceable trademarks in the U.S.
    He wouldn't have a case in Federal Court, though. Without the
    trademark claim, the Federal Court system could not have kept
    jurisdiction. So the trademark claims were key to the ruling and
    were explicitly allowed to proceed.
    How are Tokyo, Paris, and London applicable to U.S. trademark law?

    Last time I looked, neither Amazon nor eBay have storefronts or
    sales locations in any of those cities. Are you asserting their
    trademarks aren't valid either?

    As for New York, there are at least two Lexus dealers in the city
    where you can buy a Pebble Beach Edition Lexus which features the mark
    under license.

    http://www.lexus.com/models/SC/special_edition/index.html?s_ocid=30320

    Obviously Lexus disagrees with your assertions of the mark's marketing
    power.
    Why yes, yes, they will. This company you've never heard of has
    annual revenue of about $150 million a year.
     
    Michael Benveniste, Dec 13, 2008
    #13
  14. If you want me to do your research for you, I'll be glad to quote
    terms.
    Ignoring the math error, we're talking U.S. law here.

    You keep trying to shift the analysis to a worldwide basis. In many
    places of the world, trademarks are essentially unenforceable. Just
    because the Taliban can (and did) pirate Mickey Mouse doesn't render
    that trademark void.
    The 5th and 9th Federal Circuits. You can take it from there.
    6 million visitors. Millions of television viewers. QED. You don't
    need to prove a potential market of everyone in the world.
    I agree it's irrelevant, but you did ask.
    So what? So are people selling art prints of specific trees, and
    there's a substantial overlap between the two restricted demographics.
    Pebble Beach doesn't care about you selling a print of any other tree.
    So let's sum up. You were wrong on your two of your initial three
    points about U.S. trademark law, and Pebble Beach has no problem
    meeting the claim. And you were wrong about the mark being
    "essentially unknown." And that's before dealing with the contractual
    claim.

    Thank you for playing.
     
    Michael Benveniste, Dec 13, 2008
    #14
  15. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    tony cooper Guest

    Not at all. Most people - far more than the majority of people -
    would not recognize the term "dslr". The point is that terms, brands,
    and trademarked logos are usually known only to followers of whatever
    sport, hobby, or field is involved. You don't follow golf, so you
    don't think a trademark golf logo is widely known. You do follow
    photography, so you think a camera term is widely known.

    There are some trademarked sports logos that transcend the sports use.
    The Nike "swoosh", for example.
     
    tony cooper, Dec 13, 2008
    #15
  16. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    Paul Furman Guest

    Isn't the Bean on private land? On their plaza, not the public sidewalk.
    You should be able to shoot it from the sidewalk with confidence to tell
    them to get lost but on their property you have to play by their rules.

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 14, 2008
    #16
  17. I was blissfully aware, around 8 am one fine day in Chicago in October,
    that I was risking life and limb. I even chatted with the security
    person as I walked around and under the Great Bean, stopping, composing
    and pressing of a dozen or so shots. Who knew?
     
    John McWilliams, Dec 14, 2008
    #17
  18. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    Paul Furman Guest

    Well then I think the cop was mistaken.

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 15, 2008
    #18
  19. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    tony cooper Guest

    If the cops would have bought your story, it might have given you the
    idea to start a service for professional photographers who want to
    avoid paying for permits: renting kids and old equipment.
     
    tony cooper, Dec 15, 2008
    #19
  20. Borked Pseudo Mailed

    tony cooper Guest

    So where did you go? Last summer I went back to Chicago after a 27
    year absence, and all my favorite restaurants were gone. Berghoff's
    was gone, the hot dogs at Lincoln Park Zoo weren't as good as I
    remembered, and "Ash Cans" in Rogers Park was no more. We went to
    Uno's for old time's sake, but I never did really like deep-dish
    pizza.
     
    tony cooper, Dec 15, 2008
    #20
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