Photos Can't Escape It, Either

Discussion in 'Photography' started by Paul McAleer, Jan 25, 2005.

  1. The art world is full of respected works that do not engender good
    feelings. In fact, some are very disturbing. If someone's only interest
    in art is the stuff that makes them feel good, then they're missing out
    on rather a lot of quality material.
     
    Eric Schreiber, Jan 26, 2005
    #41
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  2. You're right, it's not a sign of being uneducated. It is a sign,
    though, of being uncouth, uncultured, rude, and very probably missing
    the point.
     
    Eric Schreiber, Jan 26, 2005
    #42
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  3. Paul McAleer

    Mike Kohary Guest

    It's not a cultural response, it's biological. Countless studies
    demonstrate exactly what Owamanga laid out - there's really no disputing it.

    Which is not to say I disagree that there is cultural bigotry against obese
    people in today's society (at least in America), and personally I think the
    "health Nazis" have become insufferable. At the same time, you seem to be
    at the other extreme in terms of defensiveness. Being fat is nothing to be
    proud of. I myself am about 50 pounds overweight, and while I don't torture
    myself with daily self-deprecation, I'm also not happy about the fact that
    I'm putting my health at risk. "One of these days" I plan to lose most of
    that excess weight, because it simply isn't good for me. And let's face it,
    I'd be more attractive (and photogenic, to bring it back on topic) if I
    wasn't carrying it around, either.

    It's one thing to accept yourself for who you are, and make the most of your
    life and self-esteem on that basis. It's another to delude yourself about
    your condition, and let that delusion ruin your health and adversely affect
    your life as a result. I don't know where on the scale you fall as far as
    that's concerned, but I'm just saying.
     
    Mike Kohary, Jan 26, 2005
    #43
  4. Paul McAleer

    BillB Guest

    Since you said "Being overweight is BAD" and not "Being morbidly
    obese is bad", I wonder if that is universally true? Is it true in
    Hawaii and Samoa? Is it also true if you live in an igloo? :)
     
    BillB, Jan 26, 2005
    #44
  5. My what now?
     
    Brian C. Baird, Jan 26, 2005
    #45
  6. Paul McAleer

    Mike Kohary Guest

    Calories in - calories out = weight gain/loss.
     
    Mike Kohary, Jan 26, 2005
    #46
  7. Too bad you wore your helmet. Think of all the time that could have
    been saved if people didn't have to listen to your whining.
    I said "transference", not Larry.

    And you had to look it up?! And AFTER you look it up, you STILL try
    transferring your problems on others! Sad.
     
    Brian C. Baird, Jan 26, 2005
    #47
  8. Not eating the wholegoddamnedbagofchips = weight loss.
     
    Brian C. Baird, Jan 26, 2005
    #48
  9. Paul McAleer

    C J Campbell Guest

    Rather simplistic. You still haven't figured out why the obese feel
    compelled to eat so much, so you pass a moral judgment on something that you
    don't understand. I should not be surprised; men have always appealed to the
    gods when understanding fails them.

    What, you think these people eat that much because they enjoy being fat, or
    even that they enjoy eating a lot? It is not a simple matter of willpower.
    Were it so, there would not be a fat person on the planet. Or an alcoholic,
    either. Or a chain smoker. Or depression. Or homosexuality. Obesity is not
    necessarily a voluntary behavior.

    Compulsive eating is like an addiction, not something that can be stopped
    simply by willing it so. Unlike drugs, though, to stop eating entirely is to
    die, so the obese must continue to take a 'drug' that harms him and
    reinforces his addiction. Sure, maybe you can control it for brief periods
    of time, but it comes roaring back all the worse.

    Most medical doctors now counsel against making any major effort to lose
    weight if you are obese, did you know that? The constant dieting and binging
    cycle is far harder on the heart and body than just staying fat. Really, the
    ignorance I see here regarding the causes of obesity is appalling.
     
    C J Campbell, Jan 26, 2005
    #49
  10. Paul McAleer

    C J Campbell Guest

    For your information, I am not the one whining about having to look at fat
    people.
     
    C J Campbell, Jan 26, 2005
    #50
  11. Paul McAleer

    Mike Kohary Guest

    You see? You *are* overly defensive. I haven't applied a moral judgement
    to anything, which you can easily verify by going back and reading my posts.
    I guess you skipped over the part where I tell you that I myself am about 50
    pounds overweight. :)

    It is not simplistic - it is simple fact. Weight can be controlled by
    manipulating your caloric intake and expenditure, and it works the same for
    every living mammal.
    I am one of "these people", and yes, I overeat because I enjoy eating. I
    enjoy the very act of doing it, and enjoy the taste of good food. When I
    regard eating as more of a practical matter of fitness and survival, rather
    than as some kind of psuedo-hobby, I may have more success in maintaining
    healthier eating habits. But I never kid myself that I don't have a choice.
    That's right, it takes hard work. "Willing it so" is never simple.

    This has now gone way off-topic for the photographic newsgroup I post from,
    so I'll have to leave it here.
     
    Mike Kohary, Jan 26, 2005
    #51
  12. Paul McAleer

    grol Guest

    I like pie! :)
     
    grol, Jan 26, 2005
    #52
  13. Paul McAleer

    grol Guest

    Or Japan?
     
    grol, Jan 26, 2005
    #53
  14. Paul McAleer

    grol Guest

    Exactly. The parents of those kids need to take responsiblity for their kids
    health and diet.
     
    grol, Jan 26, 2005
    #54
  15. Paul McAleer

    Jan Böhme Guest

    The level of obesity that would actually prevent intercourse is
    immense. There is no physical problem whatever with a person weighing
    400 lbs/180 kg having sexual intercourse, for instance. Very few
    people are that obese, and those that are, have generally far more
    serious problems than not being able to have sex.

    Such levels of obesity would simply not have been attainable during
    our evolution, and it is thus highly improbable that we have been
    selected specifically to find them sexually non-attractive. There
    would simply have been no evolutionary point.

    The risk for death in childbirths increases with obesity, but largely
    because obesity increases the risk for diabetes and hypertension,
    which are known risk factors in pregnancy. A nondiabetic normotensive
    woman with a BMI of 40, i.e. a 5' 7"/170 cm tall woman weighing 250
    lbs/ 115 kgs is at no increasd risk for pregnancy complications that
    would be anywhere near a selective force to shape our perceptions.

    Yet, in today's society, a person with a BMI of 40 would definitely be
    considered fat enough to be ugly per definition - with a long chalk,
    at that. This leads at least me to the conclusion that today's
    perceptual attitudes to fat people are culturally, rather that
    biologically, founded.
    Not at all periods in history. The baroque was clearly an epoch that
    cherished fat, both on men and on women.
    Well, first, think of "Venus of Willendorf", the 25 000 B.C sculpture.
    Please note that while very old, this sculpture was made by people
    biologically just like us, with exactly the same biologically grounded
    sexual preferences:
    http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/109images/prehistoric/venus_willendorf.jpg

    Then think of Rubens' naked beauties from the mid-1600:s. His women
    are clearly fat by today's standard. Fat rolls and folds abound.
    Obviously Rubens and his audience found this highly attractive.

    "The three graces" is a good example, because Rubens would obviously
    depict a physical ideal for such a subject:
    http://www.abcgallery.com/R/rubens/rubens49.html
    We should probably dissociate men from women here. It is clear from
    the art history that the aesthetic preference through the centuries
    has been more tolerant to female fat than to male fat.

    Not surprising, really. It is the extra subcutaneous fat of women that
    give their body curves the more smooth, flowing appearance that we
    associate with femininity. And it is a general human mindset that a
    bit more of a good thing would be even better.

    Jan Böhme
    Jan Böhme
     
    Jan Böhme, Jan 26, 2005
    #55
  16. Paul McAleer

    Jan Böhme Guest

    If this is demonstrated by countless studies, I would be grateful if
    you could point some of them out to me. In my day job I am a professor
    in moelcular biology with human evolution as one of my research
    interests. Yet, I am unaware of any studies that demonstrate that
    aversion to fat is biologically, as opposed to culturally, grounded.
    (It is, incedentally, a very tricky thing to demonstrate. The reverse
    is a lot easier.)

    OTOH, the survey of the sexual preferences that was collected in
    "Patterns of Sexual Behavior" from 1952 by Beach and Ford, it is
    obvious that different human cultures, as they existed in the first
    half of the twentieth century, had very varying ideals when it came to
    body fat, and female body fat in particular.

    Jan Böhme
     
    Jan Böhme, Jan 26, 2005
    #56
  17. Paul McAleer

    Jan Böhme Guest

    However, this implies a rather shallow definition of a "beautiful
    photo" and an even more shallow definition of a "good photo".

    In the case in point, the subject was the beach itself. The people on
    the beach were essentially props to that beach.

    And it is not at all evident that a human being who functions as a
    prop in an image has to conform as closely as possible to the
    prevailing physical ideal for the photo to be at its most visually
    appealing, even if one has bought this physical ideal in its entirety.

    At least if one is not so preoccuopied with it that one can't see a
    picture with a fat person in it without classifying it as a "picture
    of a fat person".

    Jan Böhme
     
    Jan Böhme, Jan 26, 2005
    #57
  18. Paul McAleer

    Larry Bud Guest

    Since we're judging the photo on visual appeal, it's no more shallow to
    judge the person than the entire photo.
    I don't think most people looked at that photo and said the people were
    props. There was far too much detail in the person to not have them
    the focal point of the photo.
    What are we supposed to classify it as? How does one identify this
    picture from a photo of a properly proportioned individual?
     
    Larry Bud, Jan 26, 2005
    #58
  19. Paul McAleer

    Larry Bud Guest

    I don't give a shit about the "why". The fact that you admit obese eat
    more than regular people proves it can be controlled.
    Of course it is. That's why with all of the vices except depression,
    they each can be given up.

    Cite your source.
     
    Larry Bud, Jan 26, 2005
    #59
  20. Paul McAleer

    Larry Bud Guest

    I am simply saying that your sheet is showing.
    Only one of those. But that's not the right question to ask. The
    right question is, do any of those activities cost YOU money?
    Since you didn't voluntarily get hit by a car, this is different than
    voluntarily stuffing your face with potato chips.

    I didn't use the term transference, that was someone else. And I don't
    hate fat people. What I hate is the lack of personal responsibility in
    this country, and trying to blame an individual's ills on everybody
    else.
     
    Larry Bud, Jan 26, 2005
    #60
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