Photos Can't Escape It, Either

Discussion in 'Photography' started by Paul McAleer, Jan 25, 2005.

  1. Paul McAleer

    C J Campbell Guest

    Any of those that cause you to be injured and thus run up medical costs and
    insurance premiums.
    You seem obsessed with potato chips for some reason. Odd, that.

    Actually, most fat people eat very little more than others. Their weight
    gain is slow; it just accumulates over many years.

    Personally, I think most of the problem is the enormous amount of sugar that
    is added to most foods. There is no excuse for it.
    I think I can agree with that sentiment. However, there seem to be some who
    blame their personal ills on fat people, which I think is appalling. Now, if
    you don't mind, I am going out to 'run,' er, hobble, for a couple miles with
    the dog and maybe take a picture or three. There is a nice flock of wood
    ducks that has moved in over at Big Pond in the last couple of days.
     
    C J Campbell, Jan 26, 2005
    #61
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  2. Paul McAleer

    Cynicor Guest

    How old are you? Serious question.
     
    Cynicor, Jan 26, 2005
    #62
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  3. Paul McAleer

    Old_Timer Guest

    Jan, since I am now in my seventies, I can tell you that 50 - 60 years
    ago fat girls were not popular then either, They were regarded as
    well, fat girls or just fatties. Certainly none of the my school's
    cheerleaders were fat nor were any those most admired and desired by
    the boys.

    Old_Timer
     
    Old_Timer, Jan 26, 2005
    #63
  4. Aren't you a little too good at excusing your behavior on the grounds of
    "I can't help it!"?

    Yet people sober up every day, pull themselves out of depression and...
    well, homosexuality really shouldn't be included in that category. Nice
    bait, but I won't take it.

    Why don't you spend as much energy on willpower as you do excuses?
    You'd be amazed by the results!
     
    Brian C. Baird, Jan 26, 2005
    #64
  5. I don't think anyone is whining about looking at fat people. Hell,
    looking at fat people is a national past-time, on par with baseball.

    "Oh my god! Look at that lard-ass!"

    "Oh my god! Did you see that double play?"

    See the similarities?
     
    Brian C. Baird, Jan 26, 2005
    #65
  6. Paul McAleer

    Ben Thomas Guest

    Keep trolling. You'll get a good bite eventually.

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    Ben Thomas, Jan 26, 2005
    #66
  7. Paul McAleer

    grol Guest

    Ever heard of "Weight Watchers"? I know a few that managed to obtain toothpick
    waife-life status using this method of calorie control. Requires willpower
    though. Stomach stapling also works. They simply cannot stuff their gut full of
    potato crispies, pork rinds and cream pies anymore. ;-)
     
    grol, Jan 26, 2005
    #67
  8. Paul McAleer

    grol Guest

    (grol shakes his head in disbelief)

    Because someone painted it, it must be real life?

    Ever hear of the word "gluttony"? It means "habitual eating to excess". Examine
    those words, especially the word "excess". No-one excuses the behaviour of an
    alcoholic, they usually encourage them to seek help. Why is this any different?

    Ok then, what it being "fat" is a lifestyle choice? Just like smoking. Why
    should our tax-payer dollars subsidise their triple-bypasses? Yes, healthcare in
    my country is almost free.

    Back to those photos, the parents of those children should be ashamed of
    themselves and be take some responsiblity for their children's diet and health.

    grol
     
    grol, Jan 26, 2005
    #68
  9. Paul McAleer

    Jan Böhme Guest

    No, I know. Yet, the ideal figure back then had a few pounds more than
    now. This can easily be spotted in the the chorus lines of the musical
    song-and-dance films of the thirties and fourties. They are certainly
    not fat by today's standard. But they would still not be slim enough
    to be put in the chorus line of a modern Hollywood production.

    But essetially, we have lived in a culture putting a premium on female
    slimness for the last 85 years or so. However, we just have to go a
    little bit further back, to the youth of my grandfather, born in 1882,
    to have a completely different picture. Back then, skinny girls had a
    problem, and their mothers tried to nourish them by giving them
    cocktails of cream, egg yolk and stout.

    Jan Böhme
    Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
    Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.
     
    Jan Böhme, Jan 26, 2005
    #69
  10. Paul McAleer

    Jan Böhme Guest

    For sure it must be! If the appeal of a photo never can transcend the
    physical beauty of the people in it, what would be the point in
    photographing people, ever? Just preserving good looks for posterity?
    Is the photographer's skill only measured in how well he can flatter a
    human subject?

    Some of the most moving and beautiful photos that I know of have
    portraited people who were not physically beautiful at all by any
    conventional standard. Take my compatriot Christer Strömholm's series
    of Parisian transsexuals, for instance.

    Extremely beautiful photography. But the physical appeal of most of
    the subjects isn't obvious, to put it mildly.
    OK, we may differ in perspective. I didn't find particularly much
    detail in the back of the woman who obviosly defined the whole picture
    for some viewers. To me, the
    Well, at least I normally tend to classify photos according to
    composition, rather than according to my attitude to the depicted
    people.

    Jan Böhme
    Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
    Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.
     
    Jan Böhme, Jan 26, 2005
    #70
  11. Paul McAleer

    C J Campbell Guest

    health.

    Why should they? Your parents didn't bother to teach you any manners.
    Apparently you think those kids' parents should be better than your parents
    were.
     
    C J Campbell, Jan 26, 2005
    #71
  12. Paul McAleer

    C J Campbell Guest

    I dunno. It has been pretty lame so far.
     
    C J Campbell, Jan 26, 2005
    #72
  13. Paul McAleer

    Old_Timer Guest

    In the USA obesity is quite common among the lower socio-economic
    classes. Seventy years ago the lower classes often subsisted upon
    very basic foods such as beans and potatoes. On such a diet one is
    far less likely to overeat plus food was scarce. In addition, the
    poor people of the time often toiled very hard thereby burning more
    calories. This combination of less calories in and more calories out
    would certainly have had an effect on their body weight.

    Go to this link
    http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/depression/photoessay.htm

    and notice how fewer obese people are evident in the photos taken in
    that era as compared to a lower socio-economic-economic group of
    people today.

    Old_Timer
     
    Old_Timer, Jan 26, 2005
    #73
  14. Paul McAleer

    grol Guest

    And why do you presume that? What manners haven't I learned?
    The "dependants" in question are dangerously unhealthy. Ask any G.P. It should
    be the parents responsiblity to provide an adequate diet.
    grol
     
    grol, Jan 27, 2005
    #74
  15. Paul McAleer

    grol Guest

    Because they are parents. duh!
     
    grol, Jan 27, 2005
    #75
  16. Paul McAleer

    Frank ess Guest

    shhh
     
    Frank ess, Jan 27, 2005
    #76
  17. Paul McAleer

    Large Marge Guest

    http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/dimtext/positions/fat_sex.html

    The Mythology of Obesity tells us that sex with a fat partner is either
    fruitless or impossible. It's a prejudice that crosses all boundaries of
    race, class, education, and physique: you're as likely to encounter it in a
    gynecologist's office as in the pages of The National Lampoon.

    In the real world, sex is more likely to be impeded by anxiety than
    adiposity. Fear of rejection, fear of not meeting the partner's
    expectations, and fear of not being able to perform are among the most
    common emotional barriers to intercourse. Some dysfunctional people harbor
    feelings of guilt over their sexual needs, or lack the skill or desire to
    stimulate their partner. Even mild anxiety can impede or disable sexual
    performance. Ignorance and inexperience contribute their own problems.
    "Frequently, for instance" reveals Dr. Helen Singer Kaplan in Psychology
    Today, "neither spouse knows where the clitoris is or recognizes its
    potential for eliciting erotic pleasure. They have intercourse as soon as
    the husband has an erection, and he ejaculates without considering whether
    his partner is ready. Such couples genuinely wonder why the wife does not
    reach orgasm."

    Fat people suffer all these problems in spades. The social pressures they
    endure create numerous obstacles to sexual interaction. The most direct
    effect comes from dieting: prolonged semistarvation can seriously dampen
    the libido, and a woman who is losing weight can experience a disruption of
    her normal menstrual cycle. Indirect effects of prejudice include a lack of
    opportunity, a history of rejection, and a negative body image. "Some obese
    woman, fearful of competing for a man's interest, avoid interpersonal
    encounters and disparage males in general," writes Dr. Barbara E. Bess in
    the journal Consultant. "Once involved in a relationship, they doubt the
    partner's sincerity." Self-hatred manifests itself in a number of
    anti-erotic behaviors. "Some women are reluctant to act seductively for
    fear of rejection and ridicule. Young women ... express the desire to look
    'sexy' and wear seductive clothes, but fear that men in particular will
    think them grotesque. ... Many obese persons attempt to hide their bodies
    under cover of darkness, or keep their clothes on during sexual intimacy."

    Shelley Bovey found similar body- and self-image problems among fat women
    in Britain:

    The concept of being sexually undesirable because of their weight figured
    strongly in the majority of the interviews I conducted with large women.
    Apart from agonizing experiences of rejection, I discovered a lowering of
    expectations. Women felt they were risking too much rejection by even
    contemplating a relationship with the sort of man they wanted. ... This is
    a circular situation which can only be broken by women acquiring
    self-esteem and confidence in their sexuality. While they are prepared to
    accept second best­p;whatever that may mean for them­p;those arrogant men
    who talked about going on 'mercy missions' will continue to claim their
    place in sexual politics. If women cannot believe they deserve more, then
    sex for them will be like 'squirting jam into a doughnut.' as Germaine
    Greer so graphically put it...

    Fat men have even less opportunity for sexual interaction. "Despite
    changing social and sexual mores," notes Dr. Bess, "men still are presumed
    to be the sexual initiators, and such fat men are inhibited from
    approaching woman by the fear of rejection. This reticence can lead to
    social and sexual isolation." As for the FA, fear of rejection combined
    with a general fear of being labeled "different" may keep him out of the
    sexual arena for many years. Instead of going through the grope-and-fumble
    stage in adolescence, he has to do it as an adult. Thus, the average FA
    displays all the sophistication and tact of the Festrunk brothers.

    Taken together, these social side-effects mean that the average fat man or
    woman tends to be somewhat sexually retarded, though perfectly capable of
    catching up with their thinner peers if the right situation presents
    itself. Dr. Bess marvels at the resiliency of fat women. Despite all the
    degradation and rejection they have suffered, she finds them "eager to
    enter into sexual relationships if initiated by men who are affirming,
    reassuring, and accepting." Most fat people, she finds, develop a normal
    sex life in spite of all society can do to prevent them. Among the more
    notable findings she culls from the recent literature are these:


    The sexual functioning of the hyperobese falls within the normal range. Few
    had problems with sexual performance or libido.
    For married obese persons, sex is an important source of pleasure.
    Single obese persons have a normal interest in sex, but have less
    opportunity to find sexual partners who consider them sexually attractive,
    due to the negative cultural bias. Limited sexual opportunity, rather than
    lack of desire, is their real problem.
    Obese persons who are not able to attract sexual partners engage in normal
    autoerotic masturbatory activity.
    Some fat persons are extremely active sexually, in both desire and
    practice, and can be stimulating­p; and stimulated - sexual partners. ...
    Thus some obese persons actually may be more sexually active than their
    nonobese counterparts.
    Hyperobese persons display great ingenuity in finding comfortable sexual
    positions, thus minimizing the potential obstacles due to their great size.

    But let us suppose that you've found the right partner and you've found the
    right attitude, but you just can't seem to find the right position. Even
    Dr. Bess isn't much help here. "Although very few such persons are unable
    to consummate the act," she writes, "this is sometimes the case, especially
    when both partners are massively obese. Having the less heavy partner
    assume the upper position facilitates intercourse for many such couples,
    but suitable positioning is an individual matter best worked out by the
    persons involved."

    This is about as much useful advice as you're likely to get from even the
    most well-informed physician. What doctors don't know about fat people and
    sex could fill an encyclopedia. I testify from experience. It is
    frightening to be asked, by a man with eight diplomas on his wall, if you
    have ever "achieved penetration" with your wife.

    In an effort to dispel such ignorance, I've undertaken an exhaustive search
    of the literature on fat sex. I find that those authorities who have taken
    the trouble to investigate the matter report that obesity is rarely, if
    ever, a barrier to intercourse. Fat is never stored in the penis, nor does
    it choke off access to the ovaries (as Hippocrates taught, and generations
    of physicians believed). In fact, the human body is remarkably
    well-designed for storing fat in large quantities. Mother Nature keeps fat
    away from the vital and sensory organs, away from the joints, and away from
    the genitals. "To put it bluntly and squarely, no woman is so fat that her
    vagina is inaccessible," states Marvin Grosswirth in Fat Pride, adding:

    The only report I had of an unsuccessful attempt at intercourse came from
    one of my informants who went to bed with a man who was as fat as she was.
    "Our bellies got in the way," she said with a giggle, and then confessed
    that they had not really tried very hard. "The whole thing struck us both
    as kind of funny and we broke up. Of course, there went the whole ball
    game." This woman is inclined to believe, on the basis of her own single
    experience, that sex between two fat people is difficult if not impossible.
    But she did not attend the NAAFA meeting at which my wife and I met a
    charming couple and their beautiful year-old daughter. Both the man and his
    wife weighed easily in excess of 300 pounds.

    Mr. Grosswirth did pause to wonder if a woman of 700 pounds might have
    difficulty with intercourse. He had apparently missed an item in the New
    York Times, datelined March 28, 1936. It seems that Mrs. Gertrude Karns
    gave birth that day to a healthy 9-pound 3-ounce baby girl at a hospital in
    Shreveport, Louisiana. The new mother weighed 745 pounds. The icing on the
    cake is that the father, Cliff Karns, weighed a hefty 304.

    The Karns, alas, did not leave us a manual to quote from (or even a set of
    diagrams). But several other authorities on sex (self-proclaimed and
    otherwise) have addressed the matter of obesity and intercourse. A few
    betrayed a vested interest in finding that fat sex is uncommon or
    unpleasant, and their comments have been omitted. The rest are quoted
    liberally below.

    MALE-DOMINANT POSITION-
    Commonly known as the "missionary position," or, in George Carlin's phrase,
    "good old American man-on-top-get-it-over-with-quick." Authoritative
    medical opinion since the time of Hippocrates has written off this
    arrangement for fat people. Many authorities still hold the notion that a
    fat man simply cannot perform in the dominant position. "If he has a
    belly," writes Alex Comfort, "... he won't be able to come on top, and will
    quite often prefer to avoid male-active positions because of
    breathlessness." As for a fat woman, John F. Oliver's authoritative
    textbook Clinical Sexuality states that "Marked obesity of the wife,
    especially of the thighs, pelvic girdle and abdomen, can make intercourse
    in the standard position well-nigh impossible. Even moderate stoutness, if
    it involves thick labia majora and a prominent mons, can keep the male
    organ from penetrating to a satisfactory depth."

    So much for authority. Those with practical experience in the matter
    adamantly disagree. Conventional sex is rarely impeded by any degree of
    fatness: experimentation and a few minor adjustments are all that the
    average fat couple require. Most would find it harder to program a new VCR.

    When the woman is fat, Abraham Friedman recommends that she lie on her
    back, "her legs bent at the hips, her thighs open as wide as possible, and
    her knees fully bent, thus completely exposing her vulva and vagina." If
    she has a big tummy, she can lift it away from her pubic region with both
    hands, at least until the man gets himself positioned between her thighs.
    If penetration is still difficult, it can help to put one or more pillows
    under her buttocks. "Considerable variety is available to you through the
    simple expediency of changing the position of your legs," writes Marvin
    Grosswirth. "If you use a pillow, your vagina becomes elevated and entry is
    easier. If you use two pillows, entry will not only be easy, it will be
    different. If you raise your legs to a certain height, the angle of
    penetration and the points of friction will be different than if you raise
    your legs to another height, or if you do not raise them at all. You would
    be amazed at the variations three inches up or down can create."

    However tempting it may be to lie atop that heavenly pillow of female
    flesh, when the woman is fat it makes more sense for the man to sit back on
    his haunches during intercourse. (Where you choose to lie afterwards is up
    to you.) You might call it "male upright" rather than "male dominant." This
    has the added advantage of freeing the man's hands­p;and with both hands
    free, a woman's tummy becomes a plaything rather than a hindrance.

    "There are only a few basic rules for a fat man to remember in the
    male-dominant position," advises Grosswirth. "First, raise your body high
    enough­p;or lift your abdomen with your hands, if necessary­p;so that your
    partner can guide the penis to its destination. This will be a little
    easier if the woman places a pillow beneath her buttocks. ... Second, never
    drop your full weight on your partner. Prop yourself up with your hands
    rather than your elbows, and lower yourself gradually. At the first
    indication that your weight is uncomfortable for her, raise yourself again.
    (Be prepared for a surprise: most women, even the smallest and most
    fragile-looking, can support a good deal more weight than you would
    suppose.) That is all."

    In fact, a fat man should be prepared to find that his weight adds to his
    partner's pleasure. "The stimulating aspect of a fat man is manifested in
    the way he uses his weight to apply intense titillating pressure on the
    woman's genital area," writes Lisa Davis. "What with the physical power of
    most men, physical weight is not a necessity for a man to make his presence
    felt, but it can be an advantage. I first learned this with my lover
    Donald. When we made love, he would center much of his weight over and
    around my clitoris and gently rock back and forth, stimulating me to long,
    ecstatic climaxes."

    Drawbacks to this position are usually pulmonary. A fat woman may find it
    difficult to breathe while lying flat on her back, and a fat man my find it
    difficult to catch his breath while doing the work of lovemaking for an
    extended period of time. In such cases, a couple can follow the same
    "stop-and-start" method advised for men with premature ejaculation
    problems. The man first stimulates the woman to orgasm without intercourse.
    The couple then has intercourse in the female-dominant position, and
    finally in the male-dominant position. As this last is usually the most
    stimulating position for the male, he is likely to finish before either
    partner runs out of air.

    FEMALE-DOMINANT POSITION-
    This position comes highly recommended, both by those who write about sex
    with a fat partner and those who have experienced it. "The female-dominant
    position is especially useful for very fat men, or where both partners are
    fat" advises Marvin Grosswirth. "Among its many benefits is the ease with
    which it permits touching, stroking, and caressing of almost the entire
    body." Dr Friedman concurs. "In this position, which seems to be the best,"
    he writes, "the man lies on his back, with his legs straight, or knees
    slightly bent. If there is much abdominal fat, he can lift it up with both
    hands, as the woman straddles over him with her knees bent, facing him. She
    can thus easily slide his erect penis into her vagina and start her pelvic
    thrusts either alone or in conjunction with his."

    Many writers, and many Hustler cartoons, make the point that a fat woman
    should avoid this position, for fear of injuring her partner. As with any
    such assumption, it's best not to judge the case without a trial. I have
    had incredible sex with a 500-pound woman sitting atop my pelvis, her belly
    tucked up to my chin like a comforter. It didn't last long, and it required
    a good store of oxygen, but it was incredible. It was never painful, and it
    always provided mutual satisfaction.
    Writer Jack Jardine interviewed several fat women on their sexual technique
    for Penthouse Variations, and found one who was particularly outspoken on
    the subject. Adrena (he tells us) says she loves being on top, "because I'm
    more in control and can get penetrated deeper this way. Since my hips are
    wide and I've got so much belly I've noticed that sometimes it's real hard
    for the guy to penetrate me completely so I'll take my hand down there and
    help him, maybe extend my vagina with my fingers and make sure he gets
    everything in there. When I'm on top I can reach around from the rear and
    make sure the cock goes all the way in. That little hand motion helps when
    you're a big lady."

    FEMALE DOMINANT, BACK TO FRONT-
    When both partners have particularly large tummies, the dominant woman can
    face her partner's feet. "In this variation of the above position," writes
    Dr. Friedman, "the man lies on his back and the woman straddles him with
    her back facing his front. She then inserts his penis into her vagina from
    the rear. ... Here, too, the partners' abdomens do not come in contact with
    each other, thus enabling satisfactory sexual intercourse." The problem
    here is that the woman may have to stay in a crouching posture for quite
    some minutes before the man adjusts himself to the angle of penetration.
    "Push his belly up before you sit completely," adds Screw magazine; "then
    he can rest it up against your ass."

    REAR ENTRY POSITION-
    Impolitely known as "doggie style," this position has long been advocated
    as the best for fat couples. "Given an obese man and a woman likewise obese
    or with child, how are they to do the thing otherwise?" asked 18th-Century
    German pornographer Friedrich Karl Forsberg. Rear entry is not without its
    drawbacks, however. If the man's penis is particularly short, or if the
    woman's internal anatomy is positioned at an unusual angle, it may be
    literally impossible for a couple to copulate from the rear. It can also be
    hard on a fat woman's knees.

    Nevertheless, many couples swear by it, and the size of a woman's buttocks
    and thighs doesn't seem to affect the matter. Both Alex Comfort and Abraham
    Friedman recommend it. Dr. Friedman describes it thusly: "the woman kneels
    on the bed with her legs slightly apart, and lowers her chest so that her
    behind is elevated. By kneeling behind her, and holding his stomach up with
    his hand at the same time, the man can readily insert his penis from the
    rear. He can also rest his abdomen on the woman's buttocks to make it
    easier for him to continue his sexual thrusts throughout intercourse."


    SIM'S POSITION-
    This position, named after a famous surgeon-gynecologist, is a modified
    rear-entry position, recommended by Dr. Friedman for instances where the
    woman is obese and the man is not. The woman begins by lying on one side.
    Then, the doctor informs us, "she draws her upper leg all the way up
    (toward her head) so that the knee of the upper leg is opposite the hip of
    her lower leg. This position makes her vagina readily accessible from
    slightly above and behind. The man kneels behind her, with one knee on each
    side of her straight leg, and makes entry from the rear at a slight
    sideward angle. If necessary, he can raise his body slightly by means of a
    pillow below each knee."
    Frankly, I think this just makes the whole process unnecessarily complex,
    and it seems to me that a woman would need ballet training before she could
    lift her knee to the desired height, even assuming that other parts of her
    anatomy didn't get in the way. Nevertheless, this is just a personal
    prejudice. I can't speak from experience.

    UPSIDE-DOWN POSITION-
    crew magazine offers this approach for a fat couple: "Lying down on your
    side, turn yourself around so that your partner's head is at your feet, and
    vice versa. Then shift slowly until your genitals are aligned. This way,
    you can completely avoid belly-to-belly contact."

    T-SOUARE POSITION-
    "One of the most effective positions is the 'T-square' technique," suggests
    David Reuben. "The woman is in the usual position on her back with her legs
    spread wide apart. Her partner lies with his hips under the arch formed by
    her raised legs. With both abdomens safely out of the way, penis and vagina
    have a clear field for fun."

    X POSITION-
    A modified T-square, the X position is another form of acrobatic copulation
    recommended by Dr. Friedman. "Here, too, the woman lies on her back with
    her legs bent at the hips and her thighs spread as wide as possible. After
    the penis is inserted into the vagina, the woman then brings both legs
    together, while the man swings his body in either direction 45 degrees,
    thus forming a large X. The woman should contract the muscles of her vagina
    during this maneuver to avoid the possibility of the penis slipping out. In
    this position, the partners' abdomens are not in juxtaposition, but
    sufficiently removed from each other to permit proper sexual thrusting and
    satisfactory consummation of the sex act."

    STAND AND DELIVER-
    Sometimes a fat couple needs to copulate at a greater-than ninety degree
    angle in order to keep their abdomens out of the way. "In these cases,"
    states Oliver's Clinical Sexuality, "an alternative position such as the
    woman semi-reclining across the edge of a low bed or a padded table, two
    chairs supporting the feet, and the man kneeling or standing in front of
    her, recommends itself." Alex Comfort concurs. "If approach is tricky," he
    writes, "she can lie face up over the edge of the bed and he can stand or
    kneel."

    Dr. Friedman gives a different set of blueprints for when the man is fat
    and the woman isn't. "In this position," he writes, "the man lies face up
    over the edge of the bed with his legs together and his feet touching the
    floor. I would suggest that he place a pillow under the small of his back
    for support. The woman then stands astride him close to the edge of the
    bed, and thus is able to make contact with his erect penis." Either way,
    with one partner standing and the other lying over the edge of the bed, the
    standing partner has a lot of options for adjusting the angle of approach.
    The more furniture, the more options.

    Rear entry is often facilitated when both partners are standing (the woman
    can rest her arms and/or torso on the bed). "One guy told me he loved to
    enter his wife who is big and fat by having her stand up and put one leg
    up," noted Jack Jardine's Adrena. "I've tried that, and it works pretty
    well."

    ORAL SEX-
    Oral sex can be tremendously fulfilling if you enjoy it, tremendously
    demeaning if you don't. The stereotypical view of fat women holds that they
    enjoy all oral activities. "The plump woman will often be adroit at oral
    sex because she is generally expert at other oral pursuits," suggests
    Eugene Schaimann. "She is usually a warm person who enjoys conversation.
    She is a healthy eater who loves food. Using her mouth to express herself
    is a thing that almost seems to come naturally to her." Porn publisher Al
    Goldsten has different ideas. "The fatty's expertise in oral sex," he
    writes, " ... comes from her own desexualization. She would rather give
    because she does not feel herself worthy to receive."

    Shelley Bovey might agree. After interviewing woman at a gathering of fat
    feminists, she concluded that lesbian sex could be as demeaning to fat
    women as the heterosexual variety. "In lesbian lovemaking there are
    elements of activity and passivity; there is making love and being made
    love to," she writes. "And the women who felt bad about their fat bodies
    found themselves in the age-old female place of being the giver­p;they
    could make love to their partner, but could not easily accept being made
    love to, in case they repelled their partner, or from a conviction that it
    must be revolting to make love to their fat bodies. So they were constantly
    giving, and constantly deprived. It was clear that where lesbianism is a
    part of feminism, then feminists have let their sisters down badly."
    Sex should be a meeting of equals, not a game of conquest and plunder. Oral
    sex, like any other sexual act-including the sharing of food-should be an
    occasion for mutual pleasure, not a means of establishing dominance. So
    long as that caveat is kept in mind, there can be nothing more pleasurable
    and natural. Positioning is not generally a problem in oral sex, though I
    am reminded of a cartoon in which a fat couple is advised by a sex
    therapist that "you can do six, and you can do nine, but 69 is pretty much
    out of the question." It might also help to avoid a partner with
    claustrophobic tendencies.

    ASSISTED INTERCOURSE-
    Screw magazine facetiously recommends that a fat couple call upon friends
    and family to assist them in achieving intercourse. Failing that, the
    author suggests that the woman wear a sexy corset. King Edward VII used an
    adjustable bed (built rather like an examining table) in order to find the
    best sexual positions to accommodate his own bulk and that of his partners.
    (Edward, a born FA, also had a chair that doubled as a set of scales. He
    liked to weigh his guests twice: once when they arrived, and once again
    just before they left, to see how many pounds he'd added in the meantime.)
    A certain enormous and libidinous 17th-century Cardinal is famous for
    having installed a system of slings and pulleys over his bed so that he
    could enjoy near-weightless sex with a young mistress. The possibilities
    appear limited only by one's imagination, one's budget, and one's sense of
    modesty.

    SEX WITHOUT INTERCOURSE-
    That may seem like an oxymoron, but it isn't. One can do amazing things
    with a properly trained set of fingers. A fat woman's body also provides
    opportunities for pleasure that a thin woman's body cannot. Some men swear
    that the sensation of having the penis fondled by a woman's cleavage is the
    closest thing to heaven on earth. Fat women have cleavage everywhere.

    There are other forms of intercourse between men and women: talking,
    laughing, touching, reading the Sunday paper together, watching a favorite
    movie on late night TV, or driving to the airport together just to watch
    the planes take off. Sometimes the feelings you get from just being close
    to someone are as good or better than any feelings you can get from
    intercourse itself. It may not be sex, but it sure is making love. ß

    Dr. Katzenklutter is better known to Dimensions readers by another equally
    preposterous name.
     
    Large Marge, Jan 27, 2005
    #77
  18. Paul McAleer

    Large Marge Guest

    http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/dimtext/positions/fat_sex.html

    The Mythology of Obesity tells us that sex with a fat partner is either
    fruitless or impossible. It's a prejudice that crosses all boundaries of
    race, class, education, and physique: you're as likely to encounter it in a
    gynecologist's office as in the pages of The National Lampoon.

    In the real world, sex is more likely to be impeded by anxiety than
    adiposity. Fear of rejection, fear of not meeting the partner's
    expectations, and fear of not being able to perform are among the most
    common emotional barriers to intercourse. Some dysfunctional people harbor
    feelings of guilt over their sexual needs, or lack the skill or desire to
    stimulate their partner. Even mild anxiety can impede or disable sexual
    performance. Ignorance and inexperience contribute their own problems.
    "Frequently, for instance" reveals Dr. Helen Singer Kaplan in Psychology
    Today, "neither spouse knows where the clitoris is or recognizes its
    potential for eliciting erotic pleasure. They have intercourse as soon as
    the husband has an erection, and he ejaculates without considering whether
    his partner is ready. Such couples genuinely wonder why the wife does not
    reach orgasm."

    Fat people suffer all these problems in spades. The social pressures they
    endure create numerous obstacles to sexual interaction. The most direct
    effect comes from dieting: prolonged semistarvation can seriously dampen
    the libido, and a woman who is losing weight can experience a disruption of
    her normal menstrual cycle. Indirect effects of prejudice include a lack of
    opportunity, a history of rejection, and a negative body image. "Some obese
    woman, fearful of competing for a man's interest, avoid interpersonal
    encounters and disparage males in general," writes Dr. Barbara E. Bess in
    the journal Consultant. "Once involved in a relationship, they doubt the
    partner's sincerity." Self-hatred manifests itself in a number of
    anti-erotic behaviors. "Some women are reluctant to act seductively for
    fear of rejection and ridicule. Young women ... express the desire to look
    'sexy' and wear seductive clothes, but fear that men in particular will
    think them grotesque. ... Many obese persons attempt to hide their bodies
    under cover of darkness, or keep their clothes on during sexual intimacy."

    Shelley Bovey found similar body- and self-image problems among fat women
    in Britain:

    The concept of being sexually undesirable because of their weight figured
    strongly in the majority of the interviews I conducted with large women.
    Apart from agonizing experiences of rejection, I discovered a lowering of
    expectations. Women felt they were risking too much rejection by even
    contemplating a relationship with the sort of man they wanted. ... This is
    a circular situation which can only be broken by women acquiring
    self-esteem and confidence in their sexuality. While they are prepared to
    accept second best­p;whatever that may mean for them­p;those arrogant men
    who talked about going on 'mercy missions' will continue to claim their
    place in sexual politics. If women cannot believe they deserve more, then
    sex for them will be like 'squirting jam into a doughnut.' as Germaine
    Greer so graphically put it...

    Fat men have even less opportunity for sexual interaction. "Despite
    changing social and sexual mores," notes Dr. Bess, "men still are presumed
    to be the sexual initiators, and such fat men are inhibited from
    approaching woman by the fear of rejection. This reticence can lead to
    social and sexual isolation." As for the FA, fear of rejection combined
    with a general fear of being labeled "different" may keep him out of the
    sexual arena for many years. Instead of going through the grope-and-fumble
    stage in adolescence, he has to do it as an adult. Thus, the average FA
    displays all the sophistication and tact of the Festrunk brothers.

    Taken together, these social side-effects mean that the average fat man or
    woman tends to be somewhat sexually retarded, though perfectly capable of
    catching up with their thinner peers if the right situation presents
    itself. Dr. Bess marvels at the resiliency of fat women. Despite all the
    degradation and rejection they have suffered, she finds them "eager to
    enter into sexual relationships if initiated by men who are affirming,
    reassuring, and accepting." Most fat people, she finds, develop a normal
    sex life in spite of all society can do to prevent them. Among the more
    notable findings she culls from the recent literature are these:


    The sexual functioning of the hyperobese falls within the normal range. Few
    had problems with sexual performance or libido.
    For married obese persons, sex is an important source of pleasure.
    Single obese persons have a normal interest in sex, but have less
    opportunity to find sexual partners who consider them sexually attractive,
    due to the negative cultural bias. Limited sexual opportunity, rather than
    lack of desire, is their real problem.
    Obese persons who are not able to attract sexual partners engage in normal
    autoerotic masturbatory activity.
    Some fat persons are extremely active sexually, in both desire and
    practice, and can be stimulating­p; and stimulated - sexual partners. ...
    Thus some obese persons actually may be more sexually active than their
    nonobese counterparts.
    Hyperobese persons display great ingenuity in finding comfortable sexual
    positions, thus minimizing the potential obstacles due to their great size.

    But let us suppose that you've found the right partner and you've found the
    right attitude, but you just can't seem to find the right position. Even
    Dr. Bess isn't much help here. "Although very few such persons are unable
    to consummate the act," she writes, "this is sometimes the case, especially
    when both partners are massively obese. Having the less heavy partner
    assume the upper position facilitates intercourse for many such couples,
    but suitable positioning is an individual matter best worked out by the
    persons involved."

    This is about as much useful advice as you're likely to get from even the
    most well-informed physician. What doctors don't know about fat people and
    sex could fill an encyclopedia. I testify from experience. It is
    frightening to be asked, by a man with eight diplomas on his wall, if you
    have ever "achieved penetration" with your wife.

    In an effort to dispel such ignorance, I've undertaken an exhaustive search
    of the literature on fat sex. I find that those authorities who have taken
    the trouble to investigate the matter report that obesity is rarely, if
    ever, a barrier to intercourse. Fat is never stored in the penis, nor does
    it choke off access to the ovaries (as Hippocrates taught, and generations
    of physicians believed). In fact, the human body is remarkably
    well-designed for storing fat in large quantities. Mother Nature keeps fat
    away from the vital and sensory organs, away from the joints, and away from
    the genitals. "To put it bluntly and squarely, no woman is so fat that her
    vagina is inaccessible," states Marvin Grosswirth in Fat Pride, adding:

    The only report I had of an unsuccessful attempt at intercourse came from
    one of my informants who went to bed with a man who was as fat as she was.
    "Our bellies got in the way," she said with a giggle, and then confessed
    that they had not really tried very hard. "The whole thing struck us both
    as kind of funny and we broke up. Of course, there went the whole ball
    game." This woman is inclined to believe, on the basis of her own single
    experience, that sex between two fat people is difficult if not impossible.
    But she did not attend the NAAFA meeting at which my wife and I met a
    charming couple and their beautiful year-old daughter. Both the man and his
    wife weighed easily in excess of 300 pounds.

    Mr. Grosswirth did pause to wonder if a woman of 700 pounds might have
    difficulty with intercourse. He had apparently missed an item in the New
    York Times, datelined March 28, 1936. It seems that Mrs. Gertrude Karns
    gave birth that day to a healthy 9-pound 3-ounce baby girl at a hospital in
    Shreveport, Louisiana. The new mother weighed 745 pounds. The icing on the
    cake is that the father, Cliff Karns, weighed a hefty 304.

    The Karns, alas, did not leave us a manual to quote from (or even a set of
    diagrams). But several other authorities on sex (self-proclaimed and
    otherwise) have addressed the matter of obesity and intercourse. A few
    betrayed a vested interest in finding that fat sex is uncommon or
    unpleasant, and their comments have been omitted. The rest are quoted
    liberally below.

    MALE-DOMINANT POSITION-
    Commonly known as the "missionary position," or, in George Carlin's phrase,
    "good old American man-on-top-get-it-over-with-quick." Authoritative
    medical opinion since the time of Hippocrates has written off this
    arrangement for fat people. Many authorities still hold the notion that a
    fat man simply cannot perform in the dominant position. "If he has a
    belly," writes Alex Comfort, "... he won't be able to come on top, and will
    quite often prefer to avoid male-active positions because of
    breathlessness." As for a fat woman, John F. Oliver's authoritative
    textbook Clinical Sexuality states that "Marked obesity of the wife,
    especially of the thighs, pelvic girdle and abdomen, can make intercourse
    in the standard position well-nigh impossible. Even moderate stoutness, if
    it involves thick labia majora and a prominent mons, can keep the male
    organ from penetrating to a satisfactory depth."

    So much for authority. Those with practical experience in the matter
    adamantly disagree. Conventional sex is rarely impeded by any degree of
    fatness: experimentation and a few minor adjustments are all that the
    average fat couple require. Most would find it harder to program a new VCR.

    When the woman is fat, Abraham Friedman recommends that she lie on her
    back, "her legs bent at the hips, her thighs open as wide as possible, and
    her knees fully bent, thus completely exposing her vulva and vagina." If
    she has a big tummy, she can lift it away from her pubic region with both
    hands, at least until the man gets himself positioned between her thighs.
    If penetration is still difficult, it can help to put one or more pillows
    under her buttocks. "Considerable variety is available to you through the
    simple expediency of changing the position of your legs," writes Marvin
    Grosswirth. "If you use a pillow, your vagina becomes elevated and entry is
    easier. If you use two pillows, entry will not only be easy, it will be
    different. If you raise your legs to a certain height, the angle of
    penetration and the points of friction will be different than if you raise
    your legs to another height, or if you do not raise them at all. You would
    be amazed at the variations three inches up or down can create."

    However tempting it may be to lie atop that heavenly pillow of female
    flesh, when the woman is fat it makes more sense for the man to sit back on
    his haunches during intercourse. (Where you choose to lie afterwards is up
    to you.) You might call it "male upright" rather than "male dominant." This
    has the added advantage of freeing the man's hands­p;and with both hands
    free, a woman's tummy becomes a plaything rather than a hindrance.

    "There are only a few basic rules for a fat man to remember in the
    male-dominant position," advises Grosswirth. "First, raise your body high
    enough­p;or lift your abdomen with your hands, if necessary­p;so that your
    partner can guide the penis to its destination. This will be a little
    easier if the woman places a pillow beneath her buttocks. ... Second, never
    drop your full weight on your partner. Prop yourself up with your hands
    rather than your elbows, and lower yourself gradually. At the first
    indication that your weight is uncomfortable for her, raise yourself again.
    (Be prepared for a surprise: most women, even the smallest and most
    fragile-looking, can support a good deal more weight than you would
    suppose.) That is all."

    In fact, a fat man should be prepared to find that his weight adds to his
    partner's pleasure. "The stimulating aspect of a fat man is manifested in
    the way he uses his weight to apply intense titillating pressure on the
    woman's genital area," writes Lisa Davis. "What with the physical power of
    most men, physical weight is not a necessity for a man to make his presence
    felt, but it can be an advantage. I first learned this with my lover
    Donald. When we made love, he would center much of his weight over and
    around my clitoris and gently rock back and forth, stimulating me to long,
    ecstatic climaxes."

    Drawbacks to this position are usually pulmonary. A fat woman may find it
    difficult to breathe while lying flat on her back, and a fat man my find it
    difficult to catch his breath while doing the work of lovemaking for an
    extended period of time. In such cases, a couple can follow the same
    "stop-and-start" method advised for men with premature ejaculation
    problems. The man first stimulates the woman to orgasm without intercourse.
    The couple then has intercourse in the female-dominant position, and
    finally in the male-dominant position. As this last is usually the most
    stimulating position for the male, he is likely to finish before either
    partner runs out of air.

    FEMALE-DOMINANT POSITION-
    This position comes highly recommended, both by those who write about sex
    with a fat partner and those who have experienced it. "The female-dominant
    position is especially useful for very fat men, or where both partners are
    fat" advises Marvin Grosswirth. "Among its many benefits is the ease with
    which it permits touching, stroking, and caressing of almost the entire
    body." Dr Friedman concurs. "In this position, which seems to be the best,"
    he writes, "the man lies on his back, with his legs straight, or knees
    slightly bent. If there is much abdominal fat, he can lift it up with both
    hands, as the woman straddles over him with her knees bent, facing him. She
    can thus easily slide his erect penis into her vagina and start her pelvic
    thrusts either alone or in conjunction with his."

    Many writers, and many Hustler cartoons, make the point that a fat woman
    should avoid this position, for fear of injuring her partner. As with any
    such assumption, it's best not to judge the case without a trial. I have
    had incredible sex with a 500-pound woman sitting atop my pelvis, her belly
    tucked up to my chin like a comforter. It didn't last long, and it required
    a good store of oxygen, but it was incredible. It was never painful, and it
    always provided mutual satisfaction.
    Writer Jack Jardine interviewed several fat women on their sexual technique
    for Penthouse Variations, and found one who was particularly outspoken on
    the subject. Adrena (he tells us) says she loves being on top, "because I'm
    more in control and can get penetrated deeper this way. Since my hips are
    wide and I've got so much belly I've noticed that sometimes it's real hard
    for the guy to penetrate me completely so I'll take my hand down there and
    help him, maybe extend my vagina with my fingers and make sure he gets
    everything in there. When I'm on top I can reach around from the rear and
    make sure the cock goes all the way in. That little hand motion helps when
    you're a big lady."

    FEMALE DOMINANT, BACK TO FRONT-
    When both partners have particularly large tummies, the dominant woman can
    face her partner's feet. "In this variation of the above position," writes
    Dr. Friedman, "the man lies on his back and the woman straddles him with
    her back facing his front. She then inserts his penis into her vagina from
    the rear. ... Here, too, the partners' abdomens do not come in contact with
    each other, thus enabling satisfactory sexual intercourse." The problem
    here is that the woman may have to stay in a crouching posture for quite
    some minutes before the man adjusts himself to the angle of penetration.
    "Push his belly up before you sit completely," adds Screw magazine; "then
    he can rest it up against your ass."

    REAR ENTRY POSITION-
    Impolitely known as "doggie style," this position has long been advocated
    as the best for fat couples. "Given an obese man and a woman likewise obese
    or with child, how are they to do the thing otherwise?" asked 18th-Century
    German pornographer Friedrich Karl Forsberg. Rear entry is not without its
    drawbacks, however. If the man's penis is particularly short, or if the
    woman's internal anatomy is positioned at an unusual angle, it may be
    literally impossible for a couple to copulate from the rear. It can also be
    hard on a fat woman's knees.

    Nevertheless, many couples swear by it, and the size of a woman's buttocks
    and thighs doesn't seem to affect the matter. Both Alex Comfort and Abraham
    Friedman recommend it. Dr. Friedman describes it thusly: "the woman kneels
    on the bed with her legs slightly apart, and lowers her chest so that her
    behind is elevated. By kneeling behind her, and holding his stomach up with
    his hand at the same time, the man can readily insert his penis from the
    rear. He can also rest his abdomen on the woman's buttocks to make it
    easier for him to continue his sexual thrusts throughout intercourse."


    SIM'S POSITION-
    This position, named after a famous surgeon-gynecologist, is a modified
    rear-entry position, recommended by Dr. Friedman for instances where the
    woman is obese and the man is not. The woman begins by lying on one side.
    Then, the doctor informs us, "she draws her upper leg all the way up
    (toward her head) so that the knee of the upper leg is opposite the hip of
    her lower leg. This position makes her vagina readily accessible from
    slightly above and behind. The man kneels behind her, with one knee on each
    side of her straight leg, and makes entry from the rear at a slight
    sideward angle. If necessary, he can raise his body slightly by means of a
    pillow below each knee."
    Frankly, I think this just makes the whole process unnecessarily complex,
    and it seems to me that a woman would need ballet training before she could
    lift her knee to the desired height, even assuming that other parts of her
    anatomy didn't get in the way. Nevertheless, this is just a personal
    prejudice. I can't speak from experience.

    UPSIDE-DOWN POSITION-
    crew magazine offers this approach for a fat couple: "Lying down on your
    side, turn yourself around so that your partner's head is at your feet, and
    vice versa. Then shift slowly until your genitals are aligned. This way,
    you can completely avoid belly-to-belly contact."

    T-SOUARE POSITION-
    "One of the most effective positions is the 'T-square' technique," suggests
    David Reuben. "The woman is in the usual position on her back with her legs
    spread wide apart. Her partner lies with his hips under the arch formed by
    her raised legs. With both abdomens safely out of the way, penis and vagina
    have a clear field for fun."

    X POSITION-
    A modified T-square, the X position is another form of acrobatic copulation
    recommended by Dr. Friedman. "Here, too, the woman lies on her back with
    her legs bent at the hips and her thighs spread as wide as possible. After
    the penis is inserted into the vagina, the woman then brings both legs
    together, while the man swings his body in either direction 45 degrees,
    thus forming a large X. The woman should contract the muscles of her vagina
    during this maneuver to avoid the possibility of the penis slipping out. In
    this position, the partners' abdomens are not in juxtaposition, but
    sufficiently removed from each other to permit proper sexual thrusting and
    satisfactory consummation of the sex act."

    STAND AND DELIVER-
    Sometimes a fat couple needs to copulate at a greater-than ninety degree
    angle in order to keep their abdomens out of the way. "In these cases,"
    states Oliver's Clinical Sexuality, "an alternative position such as the
    woman semi-reclining across the edge of a low bed or a padded table, two
    chairs supporting the feet, and the man kneeling or standing in front of
    her, recommends itself." Alex Comfort concurs. "If approach is tricky," he
    writes, "she can lie face up over the edge of the bed and he can stand or
    kneel."

    Dr. Friedman gives a different set of blueprints for when the man is fat
    and the woman isn't. "In this position," he writes, "the man lies face up
    over the edge of the bed with his legs together and his feet touching the
    floor. I would suggest that he place a pillow under the small of his back
    for support. The woman then stands astride him close to the edge of the
    bed, and thus is able to make contact with his erect penis." Either way,
    with one partner standing and the other lying over the edge of the bed, the
    standing partner has a lot of options for adjusting the angle of approach.
    The more furniture, the more options.

    Rear entry is often facilitated when both partners are standing (the woman
    can rest her arms and/or torso on the bed). "One guy told me he loved to
    enter his wife who is big and fat by having her stand up and put one leg
    up," noted Jack Jardine's Adrena. "I've tried that, and it works pretty
    well."

    ORAL SEX-
    Oral sex can be tremendously fulfilling if you enjoy it, tremendously
    demeaning if you don't. The stereotypical view of fat women holds that they
    enjoy all oral activities. "The plump woman will often be adroit at oral
    sex because she is generally expert at other oral pursuits," suggests
    Eugene Schaimann. "She is usually a warm person who enjoys conversation.
    She is a healthy eater who loves food. Using her mouth to express herself
    is a thing that almost seems to come naturally to her." Porn publisher Al
    Goldsten has different ideas. "The fatty's expertise in oral sex," he
    writes, " ... comes from her own desexualization. She would rather give
    because she does not feel herself worthy to receive."

    Shelley Bovey might agree. After interviewing woman at a gathering of fat
    feminists, she concluded that lesbian sex could be as demeaning to fat
    women as the heterosexual variety. "In lesbian lovemaking there are
    elements of activity and passivity; there is making love and being made
    love to," she writes. "And the women who felt bad about their fat bodies
    found themselves in the age-old female place of being the giver­p;they
    could make love to their partner, but could not easily accept being made
    love to, in case they repelled their partner, or from a conviction that it
    must be revolting to make love to their fat bodies. So they were constantly
    giving, and constantly deprived. It was clear that where lesbianism is a
    part of feminism, then feminists have let their sisters down badly."
    Sex should be a meeting of equals, not a game of conquest and plunder. Oral
    sex, like any other sexual act-including the sharing of food-should be an
    occasion for mutual pleasure, not a means of establishing dominance. So
    long as that caveat is kept in mind, there can be nothing more pleasurable
    and natural. Positioning is not generally a problem in oral sex, though I
    am reminded of a cartoon in which a fat couple is advised by a sex
    therapist that "you can do six, and you can do nine, but 69 is pretty much
    out of the question." It might also help to avoid a partner with
    claustrophobic tendencies.

    ASSISTED INTERCOURSE-
    Screw magazine facetiously recommends that a fat couple call upon friends
    and family to assist them in achieving intercourse. Failing that, the
    author suggests that the woman wear a sexy corset. King Edward VII used an
    adjustable bed (built rather like an examining table) in order to find the
    best sexual positions to accommodate his own bulk and that of his partners.
    (Edward, a born FA, also had a chair that doubled as a set of scales. He
    liked to weigh his guests twice: once when they arrived, and once again
    just before they left, to see how many pounds he'd added in the meantime.)
    A certain enormous and libidinous 17th-century Cardinal is famous for
    having installed a system of slings and pulleys over his bed so that he
    could enjoy near-weightless sex with a young mistress. The possibilities
    appear limited only by one's imagination, one's budget, and one's sense of
    modesty.

    SEX WITHOUT INTERCOURSE-
    That may seem like an oxymoron, but it isn't. One can do amazing things
    with a properly trained set of fingers. A fat woman's body also provides
    opportunities for pleasure that a thin woman's body cannot. Some men swear
    that the sensation of having the penis fondled by a woman's cleavage is the
    closest thing to heaven on earth. Fat women have cleavage everywhere.

    There are other forms of intercourse between men and women: talking,
    laughing, touching, reading the Sunday paper together, watching a favorite
    movie on late night TV, or driving to the airport together just to watch
    the planes take off. Sometimes the feelings you get from just being close
    to someone are as good or better than any feelings you can get from
    intercourse itself. It may not be sex, but it sure is making love. ß

    Dr. Katzenklutter is better known to Dimensions readers by another equally
    preposterous name.
     
    Large Marge, Jan 27, 2005
    #78
  19. What, me calling people "fatty" and "Crisco" hasn't helped?

    Jeez... just when I thought I was starting to contribute again...
     
    Brian C. Baird, Jan 27, 2005
    #79
  20. <Snip disgusting fat sex talk>

    I was bad enough once, did you have to post it twice?

    OH, I forgot. Fat people don't know when to stop.
     
    Brian C. Baird, Jan 27, 2005
    #80
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