Photoshop Elements sale: $59 Aug 28 only

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Alan Browne, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. David Dyer-Bennet, Sep 25, 2012
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  2. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    What is a subset of what? I don't understand that. They are two
    different things.

    The Federal Trade Commission webpage explains it better than I can:
    http://ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/products/pro15.shtm

    Note that on this page it states that merchandise sent to you by
    mistake ("honest shipping error") is not treated the same as unordered
    merchandise.

    Somewhere there's a USPS page that states this in more detail that I
    found over a year ago, but I can't find it now. Still, the FTC page
    should answer the question.
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
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  3. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    Did you read the link, David? It does not say you can keep
    merchandise shipped to you by (honest) mistake.

    You have to notify the shipper and allow them to make arrangements to
    get it back. You can "reserve the right" to keep it after a specified
    length of time, but asking for that doesn't mean you can specify an
    unreasonable length of time.
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
  4. Alan Browne

    Guest Guest

    merchandised shipped to you by mistake is a subset of merchandise not
    ordered.
     
    Guest, Sep 25, 2012
  5. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    No, it's not. They are entirely different things.

    Merchandise not ordered is a deliberate action on the part of the
    shipper. The intent is to get you to pay for something you did not
    order.

    Merchandise shipped to you by mistake is an inadvertent error on the
    part of the shipper. The intent was to ship the merchandise to the
    person who did order it and would pay for it.

    Jeez...anyone should be able to understand that.
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
  6. Alan Browne

    Guest Guest

    it absolutely is a subset.
    not entirely. one is a subset of the other.

    all packages shipped by mistake are merchandise not ordered, however,
    not all merchandise not ordered are shipped by mistake. thus one is a
    subset of the other.

    if a box shows up at your door that you did not order, mistake or not,
    it is by definition, merchandise not ordered. it might have been
    shipped by mistake, or it might not. that's a separate issue.

    in either case, you *did* *not* *order* the package, making *both* of
    them merchandise not ordered.
    either way, you didn't order the package, making both of them
    merchandise not ordered.
    apparently you failed set theory. i think that was 8th grade math.

    it's never too late to learn. i'm sure the library you frequently visit
    has some books on set theory. time to browse some of those.
     
    Guest, Sep 25, 2012
  7. Alan Browne

    PeterN Guest

    I have some friends who still practice, some of whom made and still
    make, a lot of money from people who didn't understand what you are saying.
     
    PeterN, Sep 25, 2012
  8. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    Well, I see - on reflection - what nohelp and David are saying about
    "subset". They see "Merchandise received that was not ordered by the
    recipient" as the master set, and "Merchandise received that was not
    ordered by anyone" as a subset of that, and "Merchandise received that
    was not ordered by the recipient" as another subset of that. That's a
    valid ordering if you add that master set, but it ignores the point of
    the difference between the two.

    For purposes of what the recipient is allowed to do, the subset
    ordering concept is not important, and the two must be looked at
    individually. In one, the recipient is allowed to keep or discard
    the merchandise with no further responsibility. In the other, the
    recipient has an obligation to the shipper.

    The other guy, Mxlwhatever, sees no difference between the two. That
    is incorrect.
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
  9. Did *you* read it? It in fact does say exactly that!
    It says that is what you should do, not what you must
    do. Moreover if you can "reserve the right", then
    clearly you have the right. The right you have is to
    keep the merchandize, because it was not ordered.

    The point is that the law was intended to prevent
    purposely shipping people items they have not ordered
    and then demanding payment. It was not meant to
    penalize mistakes, but there is no way to separate the
    two other than suggesting a person who realizes it is
    actually a mistake should not take advantage just
    because the law does allow it. And the law absolutely
    does allow exactly that! You are not *required* to
    determine if it is a mistake.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Sep 25, 2012
  10. Peter, I think you are dishonest. I doubt you know of
    any lawyer that has ever made any significant money for
    that reason.

    Most that do make any money on that will collect about 1
    hour's wage to explain that yes you can keep what was
    sent if you didn't order it, and that's it.

    Of course there are dishonest lawyers (not you of
    course!), who would take it under advisement, spent 5 to
    10 hours doing legal research, and then advise the
    client and bill them for the research. The fact that
    they knew the answer to start with and could have had
    them out the door in 15 minutes has no significance in
    their world.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Sep 25, 2012
  11. Merchandise sent to me by mistake is a subset of merchandise not
    ordered.
    So basically, they're back-pedaling. I have no way of knowing what
    something arriving on my porch falls into.
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Sep 25, 2012
  12. Not in English they're not. Maybe in legalese.
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Sep 25, 2012
  13. Of course I read it.
    The first Q&A:

    Q. Am I obligated to return or pay for merchandise I never ordered?

    A. No. If you receive merchandise that you didn’t order, you have a
    legal right to keep it as a free gift.

    And the second Q and first part of A:

    Q. Must I notify the seller if I keep unordered merchandise without
    paying for it?

    A. You have no legal obligation to notify the seller.

    So, it specifically, and early on, denies what you claim it says.

    So apparently *you* didn't read it.
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Sep 25, 2012
  14. Alan Browne

    PeterN Guest

    The law is not always logical, especially not in the sense of sets and
    subsets.

    One must read a regulation in light of the intent.

    The regulations in question were enacted in response to entities that
    were engaged in unfair, shoddy business practices.
    Any suggestion that they were intended to apply to shipments made in
    honest error is grossly misplaced.
     
    PeterN, Sep 25, 2012
  15. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    As said, there are two situations involved: receipt of unordered
    merchandise and receipt of unordered merchandise shipped in error.
    You have addressed the first, but I was addressing the second. You
    have to read the entire page.

    Q. What should I do if the unordered merchandise I received was the
    result of an honest shipping error?

    A. Write the seller and offer to return the merchandise, provided the
    seller pays for postage and handling. Give the seller a specific and
    reasonable amount of time (say 30 days) to pick up the merchandise or
    arrange to have it returned at no expense to you. Tell the seller that
    you reserve the right to keep the merchandise or dispose of it after
    the specified time has passed.

    BTW, you would know which situation is involved. The ethically
    challenged could pretend they don't, but you'd know.

    If you receive a package in the mail, along with an invoice for $50,
    for Floyd Davidson's Coffee Table Book of Street Photography (with 100
    color photographs of mountains, trucks, and seal clubbings), you'd
    know that this is an unordered item and can be kept or discarded and
    that you need not pay the invoice.

    If you receive a package in the mail, with an enclosed invoice made
    out to someone else, that contains an expensive camera, you'd know
    that this was an honest shipping mistake and you have an obligation to
    return it if the shipper pays for the costs.
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
  16. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    No, it does not.
    Floyd, what do you think "reserve the right" means? It does not mean
    that you *have* an actual right. It means that you are declaring that
    you will do something if you feel that it is necessary. There's no
    implied or actual legal entitlement required to reserve the right to
    do something.

    "Reserve the right" is simply a phrase, not a point of law. You can't
    reserve a right that you do not have, but you can say it.
    No, you don't.

    Scenario:

    Acme Camera receive an order from Joe Smith for a Nikon D600. Joe's
    credit card is charged for the camera, but an error in Acme's shipping
    department occurs and the wrong shipping label is attached to the
    package shipping the camera to you.

    You think that camera is yours to keep? You think you can "reserve
    the right" to not return that camera?

    You can notify Acme that you have the camera, that you will return it
    if they provide a means of returning to them at no cost to you, and
    you can say that you will consider the camera abandoned and your
    property if you don't receive instructions and a means of returning it
    at no cost to you within 30 days. You don't need to say "I reserve
    the right" to keep it under those conditions. There's no "right" that
    needs referencing.

    If Acme sends you a pre-paid shipping label, you must return the
    camera.

    That's correct, and that's what I've said.
    What you are saying here is that if you are morally bankrupt and don't
    look at the enclosed paperwork that says the camera should have been
    shipped to Joe, that you can pretend that you don't know that there
    was an honest mistake and keep the camera. You can hope that Acme
    can't trace where the camera was shipped. That may be your ethical
    position.

    However, if Acme can trace the shipment, Acme can demand return or
    payment. Acme would be on solid legal ground to do so. Your refusal
    to return it or pay for it would be the criminal act of conversion.

    I seriously wonder about the ethics of someone who reads that link and
    thinks that they have some "right" to merchandise shipped by honest
    mistake and that they are "not *required* to determine if it is a
    mistake".

    It's like saying "I reserve the right to walk out of the store without
    paying for the merchandise I've taken if the cashier doesn't notice
    that I have it.".
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
  17. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    I can't really see putting merchandise shipped by honest mistake as a
    subset of merchandise not ordered. Since the conditions of the two
    are different, if I had to have subsets, I'd want a master set with
    both as subsets. The merchandise *was* ordered in the honest mistake
    set, but ordered by someone else.

    Really? I suppose that this would be the case if there was no
    paperwork in the package, but that's not usually the case in
    merchandise shipped by honest mistake. A private individual may send
    something out with no paperwork enclosed, but businesses rarely do.
    Once you open the package and read the enclosed paperwork, though, you
    know.
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
  18. It means that you do have that right, you know you have
    that right, and are not abrogating that right. Look up
    the word "reserve" in a dictionary and stop huffing
    about something through ignorance.

    You cannot reserve a right that you don't have.
    Giggle, snort. I can reserve the right to lobotomize
    Tony Cooper?
    The whole point of saying it in that letter was to let
    the shipper know that you are aware that you have the
    right to just keep the merchandize, and you are not
    legally giving up that right.
    The law says you do, and the web page you cited says
    exactly that. The fact that you can't understand it
    doesn't change that.
    In fact, that is true. I'm not saying it is morally
    correct, just legally true.
    You can keep the shipping label too, and if you find a
    way to use it for something else, that's legal too!
    And that is what it does.
    You can't get the logic of all this straight, can you.
    I have never said that is the ethical thing, I said that
    it is legal to do. You have no legal requirement to
    make a determination that there has been a shipping
    error. You are only *required* to determine if you
    ordered it.
    Acme would lose. The law is pretty clear about that.
    Read the link. If you cannot understand it, get some 12
    year old to help you.
    But you don't have that right, and never did. And the
    FTC did not advise you or anyone else to claim such.
    But they very clearly said that you should point out
    that you are not giving up your right to just keep the
    merchandize under that set of circumstances.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Sep 25, 2012
  19. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    My experience involves Apple.
    The Apple monitor I bought with my P6400 in 1997 went on the blink, out
    of warranty. I called Apple support, explained the problem, and they
    said they would repair it. They sent me a DHL shipping box with
    waybill, prepaid to their service center in Tennessee. The day after I
    shipped it to them I received via DHL a similar box to the one I had
    sent. In the box was a monitor with a different serial number and
    paperwork which was not mine.

    I called the service center, and after being given a 45 minute
    run-around on the phone I managed to explain that they had sent me
    somebody else's monitor. The next day DHL arrived and collected the
    monitor. Three days later my repaired and functioning monitor arrived
    and I was a happy camper until the next day when the phantom monitor
    arrived again via DHL. I called again, this time spending over an hour
    on the phone to explain that once more I had a monitor belonging to
    somebody in Oregon, who should be getting upset that he was still
    waiting for his repaired monitor. They thanked me and had DHL collect
    the wayward monitor the next day.
    Two days later I got home from work to find it had been delivered to me
    a third time. I was peeved to say the least. I had spent almost 2 hours
    on the phone to solve their problem. I felt I had done all I was
    responsible for, and if the other customer started bitching, the Apple
    service center had a paper trail to lead them to the lost in transit
    monitor. I have not heard from them and the monitor sits in the same
    shipping box with the paperwork on it in my garage.
    I guess the other guy got a new one, somebody else's.

    BTW: at no time did DHL require a signature, they just delivered to my
    front door and left the boxes.
     
    Savageduck, Sep 25, 2012
  20. Alan Browne

    J. Clarke Guest

    It says that you "should" contact the shipper, which as a matter of
    common courtesy is true. It does not say that you must contact
    the shipper.

    Note that they are explaining the law. The actual wording can be found
    at <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/39/3009?quicktabs_8=1
    #quicktabs-8>.

    If you read that you will find on exemption for merchandise shipped to
    an incorrect address.
     
    J. Clarke, Sep 25, 2012
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