Photoshop Elements sale: $59 Aug 28 only

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Alan Browne, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. You are apparently quite blind...
    That is fairly funny, or would be if you weren't serious...

    All that counts is if *you ordered it, or not.*
    I'm thinking of finding your address, and shipping you a
    really fancy rock form the Arctic Ocean. Now, I'm going
    to put paper work in the box that says it was ordered by
    John Doe. And that you owe me $10,000 payable on
    receipt of the rock.

    You clearly do not really have to pay me, but you are
    saying that you think I could sue you and win! I just
    don't that it works that way...
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Sep 25, 2012
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  2. Here is the full text at that URL, and there is no
    exemption for incorrect addresses. And "unordered
    merchandise" is very clearly defined in section (d).


    " (a) Except for
    (1) free samples clearly and conspicuously marked as
    such, and
    (2) merchandise mailed by a charitable organization
    soliciting contributions, the mailing of unordered
    merchandise or of communications prohibited by
    subsection (c) of this section constitutes an unfair
    method of competition and an unfair trade practice in
    violation of section 45 (a)(1) of title 15.
    (b) Any merchandise mailed in violation of subsection
    (a) of this section, or within the exceptions contained
    therein, may be treated as a gift by the recipient, who
    shall have the right to retain, use, discard, or dispose
    of it in any manner he sees fit without any obligation
    whatsoever to the sender. All such merchandise shall
    have attached to it a clear and conspicuous statement
    informing the recipient that he may treat the
    merchandise as a gift to him and has the right to
    retain, use, discard, or dispose of it in any manner he
    sees fit without any obligation whatsoever to the
    sender.
    (c) No mailer of any merchandise mailed in violation of
    subsection (a) of this section, or within the exceptions
    contained therein, shall mail to any recipient of such
    merchandise a bill for such merchandise or any dunning
    communications.
    (d) For the purposes of this section, "unordered
    merchandise" means merchandise mailed without the prior
    expressed request or consent of the recipient."
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Sep 25, 2012
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  3. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    All "reserve" means is that you are withholding something now that you
    may use later. To use it later, though, requires that you have some
    legal right to use it.
    Exactly. And, you do not have a right to retain merchandise that was
    shipped to you by honest error.

    The most common instances of examples of shipments made by honest
    error are:

    1. Multiple shipments where an item was ordered but the same item was
    shipped again in error. The duplicate item was not ordered.

    2. Paperwork errors where wrong addresses are used on the shipping
    label.

    3. Paperwork errors where shipping labels are inadvertently used on
    the wrong package.

    So, you order a new laptop from Dell, you get it, and a few days later
    you get another laptop because the shipping order was put through a
    second time in error.

    You think that Dell is going to allow you to keep the second laptop as
    a gift because you didn't order it? You have some "right" to do this?

    In a second example, you have an account with Dell and the last time
    you ordered from Dell you paid for the item but had it shipped to your
    cousin as a gift. Now, you order again from Dell but this order is to
    be shipped to you. Dell's account information shows that the shipping
    address is your cousin's. Your cousin gets the item, you are charged
    for it, but your cousin claims that since he didn't order the item
    that the item is a gift to him. You think that your cousin gets to
    keep the item that you paid for? He gets to reserve the right to keep
    it and you get stuck for the bill?

    Third example. You order a laptop from Dell, you are charged for it,
    but the shipping label is accidently switched with an order from me
    for a $15 part. I'm charged $15, you get my part, and I get to keep
    the laptop you paid for because it was a gift to me?

    Dell may allow you keep the $15 part shipped in error because the
    return postage is in excess of their cost for the part, but that's
    their choice.
    You can say you reserve the right to do so, but since you have no
    right to do so, you can't ever exercise what you have reserved. All
    you've done is used a phrase that is meaningless because there is no
    right involved.

    Reserving the right to lobotomize me has the same legal standing as
    reserving the right to retain something you are not entitled to
    retain. None.

    I seriously wonder about both the morality and the common sense of a
    person who thinks that anything shipped to them by honest error is
    theirs as a gift.

    Where the law applies that you are allowed to keep or discard
    unordered merchandise is when the shipper deliberately sends you
    something that you did not order. No mistake is involved. It applies
    in cases like when BibleThumper, Inc send you a bible that you have
    not ordered and bills you for $25. They hope you will pay the invoice
    even though you are not required to do so.
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
  4. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    Your ignorance of the law is only exceeded by your ignorance of most
    other things you challenge here.

    Just for shits and giggles, though, let's make the scenario a little
    more realistic.

    You send me an unordered fine example of a carved baculum and enclose
    an invoice for $100 for this oosik, but the enclosed invoice is made
    out to John Doe at a different address.

    I would notify you of the error and request authorization to return it
    and a means of returning it to you at no cost to me. I don't need to
    specify that I am reserving the right to keep it as a gift if you
    don't provide authorization and assumption of return cost. That's
    just a phrase that reiterates what is already established.

    If you don't reply or provide the authorization or means of return
    without cost to me, after a period of time I can consider the item to
    be abandoned by you and I can keep it as a gift. Normally, 30 days is
    sufficient to establish abandonment, but circumstances may change
    that.

    If you do provide authorization and a means of return without cost to
    me, but I don't return the item, you would have legal grounds to
    pursue this in court. (That's impractical for this amount, but we are
    dealing with a theoretical situation here.)

    Whether or not you would win in court is dependant on other factors.
    If you can show that you did provide authorization to return and a
    means of return without cost to me, you probably would. There are no
    slam-dunks in court, though.

    For anyone reading this that doesn't know what a baculum or an oosik
    it, I encourage you to Google. Floyd knows, though.
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
  5. You can't reserve the legal right to use it if you don't
    have the legal right to use it. The statement means
    nothing if you don't have that right, and the specific
    reason they said to put it in there is because you *do*
    have it and don't want to accidentally lose it.
    Since the law says you have that right, and the FTC site
    you cited says you do, how can you come up with that
    statement?

    Here's an even better one:

    https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/...fraudschemes/othertypes/UnsolicitedFraud.aspx

    And in case you missed it in the other post, here's is the actual law:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/39/3009
    That clearly fits what the law says:

    ... "unordered merchandise" means merchandise mailed
    without the prior expressed request or consent of the
    recipient. 39 USC § 3009 (d)
    ... "unordered merchandise" means merchandise mailed
    without the prior expressed request or consent of the
    recipient. 39 USC § 3009 (d)
    ... "unordered merchandise" means merchandise mailed
    without the prior expressed request or consent of the
    recipient. 39 USC § 3009 (d)
    ... "unordered merchandise" means merchandise mailed
    without the prior expressed request or consent of the
    recipient. 39 USC § 3009 (d)
    ... "unordered merchandise" means merchandise mailed
    without the prior expressed request or consent of the
    recipient. 39 USC § 3009 (d)
    ... "unordered merchandise" means merchandise mailed
    without the prior expressed request or consent of the
    recipient. 39 USC § 3009 (d)
    ... "unordered merchandise" means merchandise mailed
    without the prior expressed request or consent of the
    recipient. 39 USC § 3009 (d)
    True! And the right reserved concerning unordered
    merchandise is one that can be exercised, because it is
    a right you do in fact have. Or are you really saying that
    the FTC was wrong about putting that into a letter?
    ... "unordered merchandise" means merchandise mailed
    without the prior expressed request or consent of the
    recipient. 39 USC § 3009 (d)

    Hence you *do* have that right!
    "If you do not wish to pay for unsolicited merchandise
    or make a donation to a charity sending such an item,
    you may do one of three things (in each case, by law,
    you have no obligation to the sender):

    If you have not opened the package, you may mark it
    "Return to Sender," and the Postal Service will return
    it with no additional postage charged to you.

    If you open the package and don't like what you find,
    you may throw it away.

    If you open the package and like what you find, you
    may keep it for free. In this instance,
    "finders-keepers" applies unconditionally."

    That is a direct quote from the postalinspectors.uspis.gov
    URL shown above.

    Do you understand yet just exactly what it means?
    There is nothing at all in the law that says a "mistake"
    is any different than an intentional fraud.

    ... "unordered merchandise" means merchandise mailed
    without the prior expressed request or consent of the
    recipient. 39 USC § 3009 (d)
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Sep 25, 2012
  6. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    Do you not understand what "mailed in violation" means?

    Merchandise shipped to the wrong person or address by honest error is
    not merchandise shipped in violation of Subsection (a).

    A violation, in this context, is a willful act.
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
  7. That's a hoot.
    So now you finally admit that it *is* a right that you
    already have to just keep the item! That is in fact well
    established.

    As noted in another article:

    '"finders-keepers" applies unconditionally.'

    That is according to postalinspectors.uspis.gov, and they
    should be an authority on interpreting the law...
    What circumstance would change anything? You don't even
    have to talk to them (me), much less give 30 days to do
    something.
    That is simply not true. Cite *anything* that says it
    is!
    That's just another name for a Tony Cooper type character.

    BTW, oosik is the word for a common nail in Yup'ik Eskimo.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Sep 25, 2012
  8. Yes, in fact I do. If you had read it, it says any
    merchandise that not a free gift or is not from a
    charitable organization soliciting donations... if it
    is "unordered merchandise" as defined in (d),it is then
    "mailed in violation. See (a) and (b) and (c) above.

    You might still want to find a 12 year old to read and
    explain it to you.
    (d) For the purposes of this section, "unordered
    merchandise" means merchandise mailed without the prior
    expressed request or consent of the recipient."
    It says nothing about "honest error", about "willful act", about
    "wrong person or address".

    The law is very clear, and both the FTC and the USPS interpret
    it very clearly too.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Sep 25, 2012
  9. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    Top posting because no one should have to read this claptrap from
    Floyd.

    You are like a little boy clapping his hands over his ears and crying
    "wow wow wow" because he doesn't want to hear what is being said.

    I expect this is a hopeless request, but can you answer "Yes" or "No",
    and only "Yes" or "No" to the following:

    Can you keep as a unconditional gift the second Dell computer shipped
    in example 1?

    Can your cousin keep as an unconditional gift the computer Dell
    shipped to him and billed to you as explained in example 2?

    Can I keep as an unconditional gift the computer Dell shipped to me
    but billed to you as explained in example 3?
     
    tony cooper, Sep 25, 2012
  10. Tony, it is utterly hilarious that you make up gratuitous insults such
    as that. The only one acting that way is *you*. We have seen two
    US Government sites explain what the law means, and neither of them
    support what you say. We've seen the law itself, and you can't even
    understand what it says.
    All of these have been answer prevously, and with specifics as to
    exactly what that is the answer.

    You don't seem to have to ability to disucss the significance of the
    answer in any of the cases presented, and you absolutely have never
    posted anything which even begins to support the nonexistant words
    you read into everything that has been quoted.

    Again, there is the point that ends the discussion every single time.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Sep 26, 2012
  11. Alan Browne

    Mxsmanic Guest

    The FTC disagrees.
     
    Mxsmanic, Sep 26, 2012
  12. Alan Browne

    Mxsmanic Guest

    Yes, it makes it clear that you can keep the merchandise, although it suggests
    that you offer to return it if it was a shipping error. You don't have to
    return it, though. You can just keep it.
    See above.
     
    Mxsmanic, Sep 26, 2012
  13. Alan Browne

    Neil Ellwood Guest

    In England if delivers a product to your dwelling without you ordering
    and just leaves it ; after you have informed the person/company that
    they may pick it up at their expense and that after a few days (I am
    not sure of the exact amount but may be around the 100 mark) if they
    haven't done so you in form them that they will be charged a fee for
    storage and it it still isn't removed within a year and a day it
    becomes your property - if you want it.
     
    Neil Ellwood, Sep 26, 2012
  14. [other customer's monitor misdelivered several times to the
    Duck]
    Well, maybe it was a hiccup in DHL land ...

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Sep 26, 2012
  15. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    It sits safely in my garage, I checked yesterday. It is a somewhat
    obsolete 13'' CRT with the non-standard Apple proprietary cable
    required, making it pretty much useless for current Apple computers,
    and anything else. It is probably time to send it to recycling.
    That was during the period (1997-2003)DHL was having all sorts of
    troubles with, and was about to discontinue its domestic US operation
    if it could not find a local solution. There was even talk of DHL
    subcontracting its US operation to FedEx. That ended when DHL bought
    Airborne Express making the US operation DHL Express.
     
    Savageduck, Sep 26, 2012
  16. Alan Browne

    PeterN Guest

    Of course I was using a bit of hyperbole. I'm surprised you did not
    recognize it as such. But, when the individual becomes stubborn and
    litigation necessary, the collection guys get a hefty percentage of what
    was collected.

    What do you think happens if the item has any real value and the client
    becomes stubborn.
    Look at your cite carefully. It specifically states that the method of
    delivery is MAILING. And punitive statutes are strictly construed.
    State law applies in regard to property ownership.


    Georgia law
    <http://consumer.georgia.gov/consumer-topics/unordered-merchandise>

    Property ownership is usually determined under State law. If the
    mistaken shipment to the Duck was not fungible goods, and my agreement
    called for title to me passed upon shipment, the Duck could not become
    the owner, simply because the shipper did not won the item shipped in
    error.
     
    PeterN, Sep 27, 2012
  17. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    Strangely enough I have never considered it mine.
    For months I waited for the inquiry, and request to return the monitor.
    Since then I expect any statute of limitations has long expired, all
    this took place sometime around 1999. It is undoubtably an obsolete
    electronic disposable, currently abandoned, not by the proper owner,
    but by Apple & DHL, and remains in storage in my garage. I should get
    it to the local E-recycler.
     
    Savageduck, Sep 28, 2012
  18. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    This is another where my response was lost, so here goes again:

    Strangely enough I have never considered it mine.
    For months I waited for the inquiry, and request to return the monitor.
    Since then I expect any statute of limitations has long expired, all
    this took place sometime around 1999. It is undoubtably an obsolete
    electronic disposable, currently abandoned, not by the proper owner,
    but by Apple & DHL, and remains in storage in my garage. I should get
    it to the local E-recycler.
     
    Savageduck, Sep 28, 2012
  19. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    REPOST

    It sits safely in my garage, I checked yesterday. It is a somewhat
    obsolete 13'' CRT with the non-standard Apple proprietary cable
    required, making it pretty much useless for current Apple computers,
    and anything else. It is probably time to send it to recycling.

    That was during the period (1997-2003)DHL was having all sorts of
    troubles with, and was about to discontinue its domestic US operation
    if it could not find a local solution. There was even talk of DHL
    subcontracting its US operation to FedEx. That ended when DHL bought
    Airborne Express making the US operation DHL Express.
     
    Savageduck, Sep 28, 2012
  20. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    Every response you think has been lost is one that did appear...at
    least for me.

    I suspect the problem is at your end, not the viewer's end.
     
    tony cooper, Sep 28, 2012
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