producing b&w slides using negative film and a slide copier

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Juha Juntunen, Aug 25, 2005.

  1. I would like to produce some b&w slides to be projected with a normal 35mm
    slide projector. I know I could either use b&w slide film or normal b&w film
    (T-Max?) with a reversal kit. As a third option I was thinking I could use
    normal b&w negative film to shoot, and then make copies with a slide copier
    using negative film, the end result being a positive film image. I am sort
    of intrigued by this third method, since it would not prevent making normal
    paper enlargements from the same images. By using this method, I could also
    produce slide copies from my already shot and developed negatives. I do not
    mind the additional consumption of film.

    I was wondering, has anybody tried this? Is the end result in any way
    comparable to "proper" slide film? Is it even worth trying? Are there any
    considerations how I should make the second film exposure and development?
    Sorry if this is a FAQ.
     
    Juha Juntunen, Aug 25, 2005
    #1
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  2. Juha Juntunen

    Peter Irwin Guest

    You should copy the negatives onto motion picture print film:
    Eastman 5302 Fine Grain Release Positive costs about
    15 dollars a roll from Kodak. It is essentially enlarging
    paper emulsion on a film base.
    Positive film prints from negatives work very well.
    Contact prints are hard to do without dust problems, but
    you should do well with a slide copying arrangement.

    Is it even worth trying? Are there any
    Eastman 5302 should be exposed at around ISO 2, but you will
    need to run your own tests. A negative that prints well on
    grade 2 paper should make a good slide when developed in
    Dektol 1:2 for about 4 minutes. You can get higher contrast
    with more active developers such as D-11. If you need lower
    contrast for hard negatives you can try D-76.

    The positive film itself has very fine grain even when developed
    in Dektol.

    Peter.
     
    Peter Irwin, Aug 25, 2005
    #2
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  3. Juha Juntunen

    Peter Irwin Guest

    Just to make that clear: it is about $15 for 100 feet.
    It is very cheap to buy. You can either order it direct
    from Kodak, or from a motion picture film distributor.
    I live in Toronto, so I picked mine up direct from Kodak
    Canada. You will have to phone Kodak first.

    Peter.
     
    Peter Irwin, Aug 25, 2005
    #3
  4. Juha Juntunen

    Jordan W. Guest

    It is sort of a FAQ. This method was discussed recently on
    www.photo.net. In short, what you are proposing does indeed work,
    but you need to use the right film -- Kodak 5302 or Technical Pan
    would do it.

    Have a look here: http://www.photosensitive.ca/BWslides.shtml
    The method you are interested in is described about 2/3rds of the
    way down the page ("Copying negatives onto a duplicating film").

    Jordan
     
    Jordan W., Aug 25, 2005
    #4
  5. Juha Juntunen

    Jordan W. Guest

    I tried purchasing the film direct from Kodak in about 2002, but
    they would only sell it to me in lots of 35 bulk rolls.
    Additionally, no camera store I talked to would sell it to me
    unless I promised to take 35 100' rolls. An electron-microscopy
    supply store (can't remember the name) eventually sold me a single
    bulk roll for US$17.
     
    Jordan W., Aug 25, 2005
    #5
  6. Thanks for the pointer. I was not expecting to use this kind of film, but
    hey, the price is great and if it works - I better try it at some point.
    Availability might be a problem for me right now, but the next time I visit
    the US I should be able to get it, if not before.

    Is it then so that normal B&W film does not work so well? Is the problem the
    film grain, or does it just not look right when projected?
     
    Juha Juntunen, Aug 25, 2005
    #6
  7. Juha Juntunen

    Peter Irwin Guest

    I don't know where you live, but Kodak has offices all over the world.
    Just call your local Kodak supplier and ask how you can order some.
    Normal B&W negative film has a contrast or gamma of less than unity,
    probably around 0.55 to 0.65. You want a final gamma for projection of
    around 1.6, so your print film needs to have very high contrast.
    5302 has a gamma of around 2.7 to 3.0 in Dektol.
    0.65 x 2.7 = 1.755 which is about right.

    Using two negative films would give you very low contrast.

    Peter.
     
    Peter Irwin, Aug 25, 2005
    #7
  8. Juha Juntunen

    Peter Irwin Guest

    That's too bad. I bought a couple rolls from Kodak Canada
    around that time without any problem. I bought 4 rolls
    of super-8 film from them this summer.

    The microscope store might have been Ted Pella.
    <http://www.tedpella.com/> I bought some Eastman 5360
    from them a couple years ago. I can't see 5302 or 5360 on their
    site at the moment, but I know they had them a couple
    years back.

    Peter.
     
    Peter Irwin, Aug 25, 2005
    #8
  9. Juha Juntunen

    Jordan W. Guest

    I think the place I ordered from might have been "Electron
    Microscopy Services". They were located somewhere in Pennsylvania.
    I was living in Boston at the time so the shipping was quick and easy.

    I live in Toronto now, actually, so it's good to know about the
    Kodak source here.

    Jordan
     
    Jordan W., Aug 25, 2005
    #9
  10. Dup film, used for making B&W movies, is used because:

    o It is very fine grain
    o It is lower contrast than regular negative film
    o It is clear
    o It is cheap

    Transparencies are projected with a point-source/condenser
    light source and clear film is needed for bright projection.

    I find using regular color slide film is easier and gives
    better results than B&W slides.
     
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Aug 25, 2005
    #10
  11. I will try to find it locally first.

    Also, thanks for the explanation, it all makes sense now. Good to know
    trying this with regular B&W film is most likely waste of time!
     
    Juha Juntunen, Aug 26, 2005
    #11
  12. Ok, I understand. Although, my motive would be mostly to find methods to
    make me as self-sufficient as possible. Could you describe, how do you find
    B&W slides lacking? I'm only trying to find out to myself if this is
    quality-wise worth pursuing.
     
    Juha Juntunen, Aug 26, 2005
    #12
  13. The B&W slides I have made using a reversal kit weren't
    very good when compared to color transparancies.

    YMMV
     
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Aug 26, 2005
    #13
  14. Juha Juntunen

    Jordan W. Guest

    But Juha is talking about copying B&W negatives onto dupe film
    using a slide duplicator, not using a reversal kit. Quite a
    different process -- no chemical reversal involved.

    Slides made by copying negatives onto a film like Kodak 5302 look
    pretty good. The better quality your slide duplicator, the better
    the positives will look.
     
    Jordan W., Aug 26, 2005
    #14
  15. Simple, dumb question about duping slides: are duplicators optical (using
    lenses), or are they just contact printers? Seems to me one could just
    contact-print the negatives emulsion to emulsion, no? In which case the only
    real problems to solve are 1) dust and 2) illumination evenness and exposure time.


    --
    - The French Revolutionary Calendar (in use 1793-1806):

    * Vendémiaire (from Latin vindemia, "vintage") Starting Sept 22, 23 or 24
    * Brumaire (from French brume, "mist") Starting Oct 22, 23 or 24
    * Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost") Starting Nov 21, 22 or 23
    * Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy") Starting Dec 21, 22 or 23
    * Pluviôse (from Latin pluviosus, "rainy") Starting Jan 20, 21 or 22
    * Ventôse (from Latin ventosus, "windy") Starting Feb 19, 20 or 21
    * Germinal (from Latin germen, "seed") Starting Mar 20 or 21
    * Floréal (from Latin flor, "flower") Starting Apr 20 or 21
    * Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow") Starting May 20 or 21
    * Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest") Starting Jun 19 or 20
    * Thermidor (from Greek thermos, "hot") Starting Jul 19 or 20
    * Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruits") Starting Aug 18 or 19
     
    David Nebenzahl, Aug 26, 2005
    #15
  16. Juha Juntunen

    Peter Irwin Guest

    I have a Leitz Eldia contact printer. It is nearly impossible
    to make completely dust free slides. That's too bad because
    it is a very nicely made piece of equipment. Even exposure
    seems not to be a problem using my enlarger as the light source.

    The better way is to have a macro lens and/or bellows with a
    slide or film strip copying attachment. There are some all
    in one slide copiers, but I suspect the lenses in them aren't
    likely to be particularly good.

    Peter.
     
    Peter Irwin, Aug 26, 2005
    #16
  17. Juha Juntunen

    Jordan W. Guest

    I think you can get both "optical" and "contact" duplicators. I
    have a couple of the optical kind that mount to a 35mm SLR through
    a T-mount. The film is held at a fixed distance and there is a lens
    somewhere in the assembly.

    I think that Leica made a contact duplicator -- I seem to remember
    reading about it. It would indeed be convenient and much faster to
    use if it worked well. I think the market would have been small
    because the main use of slide duplicators was, well, duplicating
    slides, and not necessarily photographing unmounted film.
     
    Jordan W., Aug 26, 2005
    #17
  18. I suspected exposure wouldn't be particularly difficult. And I can appreciate
    the bane of dust; however, I wonder if someone working diligently couldn't
    overcome this problem. It would require cleaning not just the equipment but
    the entire work area, including one's clothing. The equipment could be as
    simple as a homemade contact frame. (I'd imagine you'd want to use an opaque,
    black matte backing to reduce reflections back through the negative/film
    sandwich.)
    But wouldn't you still have the same problems with dust here?


    --
    - The French Revolutionary Calendar (in use 1793-1806):

    * Vendémiaire (from Latin vindemia, "vintage") Starting Sept 22, 23 or 24
    * Brumaire (from French brume, "mist") Starting Oct 22, 23 or 24
    * Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost") Starting Nov 21, 22 or 23
    * Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy") Starting Dec 21, 22 or 23
    * Pluviôse (from Latin pluviosus, "rainy") Starting Jan 20, 21 or 22
    * Ventôse (from Latin ventosus, "windy") Starting Feb 19, 20 or 21
    * Germinal (from Latin germen, "seed") Starting Mar 20 or 21
    * Floréal (from Latin flor, "flower") Starting Apr 20 or 21
    * Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow") Starting May 20 or 21
    * Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest") Starting Jun 19 or 20
    * Thermidor (from Greek thermos, "hot") Starting Jul 19 or 20
    * Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruits") Starting Aug 18 or 19
     
    David Nebenzahl, Aug 26, 2005
    #18
  19. I have this kind of a simple macro lens + slide holder setup and I can
    comment that the dust problem exists, but can be quite easily avoided at
    least for the most part. The larger dust particles are clearly visible, and
    the limited area to be worked on at a time is fairly easy to keep clean -
    working in daylight helps. Although one can work with a safelight when
    exposing this Kodak 5302 film, I would guess seeing dust particles and
    previewing the end result is more difficult with the contact sheet method.
     
    Juha Juntunen, Aug 26, 2005
    #19
  20. Thanks for this link and sorry I did not answer right away. This was all
    very extensive and useful information, and included a couple of more options
    for producing slides I did not know even existed.

    I wonder if Agfa Scala would be worth purchasing now (for storage) when it
    is still available, or if they are going to shut down the (proprietary)
    developing service in the near future... Or is discontinuing this product
    only a rumour so far?
     
    Juha Juntunen, Aug 26, 2005
    #20
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