Provia 400F v. E200 pushed 1 or 2 stops

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by Alan Browne, Jul 28, 2003.

  1. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    I shot 400F again, and again I'm just not happy.

    http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1608770&size=lg

    is a crop of a shot taken a couple weeks ago with an 80-200 f/2.8, EI
    400, incident metered at the action position. I consider the exposure
    correct, look at the greys of the concrete obstacle and the white
    sticker in shade.
    (ignore the blowouts and unders, the scene is clearly beyond the film
    latitude)

    The contrast, as you can see is heavy as heck. (For scanning these
    shots would have appeared less saturated if I had exposed them 1/3 stop
    higher, I believe).

    Has anyone shot Ektachrome 200 pushed to a higher speed. Kodak claim EI
    800 with minimal shifts in contrast and color.

    (And yes, now my son wears a helmet when doing these things).

    Cheers,
    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Jul 28, 2003
    #1
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  2. Alan Browne

    Gordon Moat Guest

    How much is the scanner not capturing the correct contrast, or is this
    fairly close to the chrome?
    You could overexpose, though it may wash the colours down a bit. Then you
    would need to boost the saturation in PhotoShop (or similar), while not
    going too far (out of gamut), to try to get a reasonable printed item for
    publication.
    I have shot lots of this, all the way to 4 and 2/3 stops push. I probably
    have more information on various settings, and exposure compensation for
    E200 than Kodak, especially since I asked Kodak, and they had no answer
    beyond their published film data sheet.

    Anyway, there were two different data sheets for Kodak E200, since it
    appeared on the market. The first indicated that push three should give a
    setting of ISO 1000, and the current PDF indicates that push three should
    give a setting of ISO 800. In practice, I found that the 800 ISO setting
    works well for darker situations, while the ISO 1000 setting is more useful
    when some available daylight is still in the scene.

    This film does not respond in a linear manner to push processing, and more
    exposure compensation is required for each greater push. An easy way to
    compensate is to set the ISO dial to account for the extra exposure needed
    with each push. Kodak E200 is a medium contrast film normally. When you use
    Push one, setting ISO 320 for correct compensation, the contrast and colour
    do appear unchanged. Even with push two, setting ISO 640, there is little
    difference in colour or contrast in most images. At push three, some
    increased contrast will appear, though it appears to be less than other
    transparency films that I have used at ISO 800 (with push processing). It
    is definitely better than Kodak P1600, or 320T pushed, or the older 400X
    pushed.

    Grain does not increase, though greater than push four, with increase in
    contrast, can sometimes show mottling, or increase scanner noise to give
    the appearance of more grain. When pushing much higher, it seems that even
    or slight underexposure work better than overexposure.

    Sorry if things seem confusing, since I am on painkillers at the moment.
    Feel free to ask questions if something does not make sense. Also, since
    the publishers left me hanging with these, here are some samples of E200 at
    push 4 & 2/3:

    <http://www.allgstudio.com/gallery/Strobe02/> Contact Sheet at the top.
    These are probably very abstract compared to most stuff on this news group,
    but just consider the exposure.

    I have not yet scanned any of my daytime push shots from E200. After much
    testing, I have my own table of ISO settings for daylight, night settings,
    with recommended ISO (compensation) for each push.

    Did I miss anything? Let me know if you have questions.

    Ciao!

    Gordon Moat
    Alliance Graphique Studio
    <http://www.allgstudio.com>
     
    Gordon Moat, Jul 28, 2003
    #2
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  3. Alan Browne

    Gregg Guest

    E200 pushed a stop will likely be more, not less contrasty than the Provia
    400F

    Superia 400 print film on the other hand should be about right

    But why do you even need 400 EI with your f/2.8 lens? Just open that sucker
    up and shoot some nice Provia 100 F or the new Velvia 100F, or if need be,
    E200 at EI 200, not pushed.
     
    Gregg, Jul 29, 2003
    #3


  4. Two problems:

    Too much contrast and slight overexposure.
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Jul 29, 2003
    #4
  5. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest



    You are too funny. Try reading the question this time.
     
    Alan Browne, Jul 29, 2003
    #5
  6. Alan Browne

    Chris Quayle Guest

    Use E200 under push 2 conditions (rate at 640) regularly for stuff like
    school sports days, airshows etc and it shows remarkably little change
    from standard at this speed, though contrast increases slightly. An
    excellent film, with accurate colour.

    Whether it would have done much better under the lighting conditions of
    the shot, I don't know, but remember that when you push film, you are
    also reducing the recordable light value range, or dynamic range...

    Chris
     
    Chris Quayle, Jul 29, 2003
    #6
  7. Alan Browne

    Gordon Moat Guest

    Okay, I guess without seeing the chrome, then it would be tougher for me to
    judge this. I briefly used Fuji Provia 400F, but I did not like the results.
    Mostly, I did not like the slightly green bias to the colours, or I should state
    more accurately that it is a cooler colour palette.
    Hydrocodone 5/Acetaminophen 500 mg, sometimes called Vicaden. Last week was
    really bad luck, and a couple days at the hospital. I still have a fever, though
    the pain is less. At least I can still type a bit.
    Two different camera bodies, one at manual settings, and the other on aperture
    priority.
    I used a Sekonic L-358 to take some early readings from different locations.
    Those settings comprised a range that I used for manually setting one of the
    cameras. The aperture priority camera was largely unadjusted, except a few times
    when I slightly increased exposure. Shutter times were all quite slow, even with
    fast lenses.

    One trick is that the strobes are actually nearly daylight, though they have
    covered lenses. The slow shutter speeds allows the strobes to stop action,
    basically like using a flash. The trick is to have the shutter open when the
    strobe passes through the scene. Most of the shots could not be seen through the
    viewfinder as they appeared in final form, so a bit of timing and intuition was
    needed to get these shots. I used three rolls of film that night, and feel lucky
    to pull those images (at the link) from all the images.

    I got bumped once, which altered the settings on one camera. After that
    happened, the rest of that roll (17 shots) was underexposed. It was too loud to
    hear the difference in shutter speed, and the viewfinder was a bit dark to see
    much other than focus. Even focus was tough sometimes, since I needed to
    manually focus, or choose a distance and try to get people within the DOF. I did
    enjoy the challenge.
    Yes, that is part of the non linear nature of this film, when using push
    processing.
    This is something I asked my lab about, and they generally followed the Kodak
    data sheet. When I pushed farther, it was up to the lab, though my settings
    worked very well. Anyway, here is a table of settings:

    Daylight/Indoor ISO Filter
    Even 200
    +1 320
    +3 1000
    +4 1600 82A
    +4 2/3 2500 82A

    Night/Lowlight ISO Filter
    Even 200
    +1 320
    +2 640
    +3 800 82A
    +4 1250 82B
    +4 2/3 2000 82B


    Okay, a few points about this. These are my tested settings. I have not done +2
    in daylight, so it is not listed. All my gear is calibrated for exact ISO match,
    meaning that ISO 200 film is used at ISO 200 always. If I need slight exposure
    compensation, it is usually done on the camera exposure compensation. With the
    large amount of exposure compensation with pushed E200, it is beyond the range
    of my compensation settings, so it is easier to set the ISO differently, and
    that is what the ISO settings mean. If you would rather use exposure
    compensation, just calculate the push, then figure the compensation by my
    tables.

    I should also mention that this film is somewhat cool to neutral, and using an
    80A would give you a bluer image. That is why I suggest no filter, or just the
    lighter blue (82A or 82B) filters. However, this may be more a personal
    preference, so you may want to try different filters.

    Funny thing about the 4 2/3 setting. My lab charges more for any push beyond +5,
    so the next closest is 4 2/3 push, and the limit of my tests. Definitely check
    with your lab, and do a test roll or two, prior to any paid assignments.
    Hopefully, some others are reading this as well. This is an amazing film that
    Kodak barely mentions in there advertisements, and the best push process film I
    have ever used.

    Ciao!

    Gordon Moat
    Alliance Graphique Studio
    <http://www.allgstudio.com>
     
    Gordon Moat, Jul 29, 2003
    #7
  8. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    Hi Gordon,

    Thanks for the many replies and data.

    I hope you are on a fast path to recovery.

    Cheers,
    Alan

    Gordon Moat wrote:
     
    Alan Browne, Jul 30, 2003
    #8
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