Question on Camera body vs Camera Lens features

Discussion in 'Photography' started by Eichler34, Nov 26, 2007.

  1. Eichler34

    Eichler34 Guest

    I'm in the process of purchasing a DSLR camera primarily for my kids sports.
    After doing a lot of research it appears the Nikon D40x or Pentax K10D are
    the choices for my budget. The Pentax appears to be noticabally superior
    when it comes to specs, but a manager of a camera shop explained it's better
    to have lenses that take care of all your needs when it comes to auto-focus,
    and image stabilization. Therefore he felt buying a Nikon with lesser body
    specs is the way to go (D40x), as long as I get a VR lens (about $700-$750
    for a 50-200mm).

    Until this conversation, I was 100% set on the Pentax, so I was hoping the
    following questions could be answered:

    1. Can an amazing lens compensate for lack of body features, and compared
    to Pentax, are the Nikon lenses that much better?

    2. If you have great body features such as image stabilization and 11 point
    autofocus, does that compensate for a good lens that doesn't have those
    features?

    3. If I were to get the Pentax with the great body features, and a Pentax
    lens with the same features, does that have a compound effect and make
    sports shots that much more superior? i.e. Does having stabilization in
    the camera and in the lens mean I now have super stabilization, or is it
    unnecessary to have it in both?

    Any responses would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,

    -John
     
    Eichler34, Nov 26, 2007
    #1
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  2. Eichler34

    ray Guest

    I don't know, never having tried that, but I would suspect they might
    fight each other. It is often recommended to turn IS off when you use a
    tripod.
     
    ray, Nov 26, 2007
    #2
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  3. Eichler34

    Joel Guest

    Don't rush else you may end up spending more for less. I would suggest to
    spend at least 4-6 months with lot of reading to have the idea what you are
    getting yourself into, or try to dig as much information as possible. Or
    try to read *both* GOOD/BAD sides before spending the money.

    Or try to think of the whole SYSTEM instead of any specific body or brand.
    So, if you interest in Nikon (or Nikon D40) then point your browser to some
    web page like www.dpreview.com or www.steves-digicams.com (I think it's the
    correct name as I saw it few days ago), and join the Nikon FORUM to read and
    learn more about it.
    This type of question shouldn't be asked <bg>, because you either don't
    get the right answer, no answer, or wrong answer. Or a cheap P&S with right
    lighting and setting could easily beat expensive DSLR body with cheap poor
    lens and wrong setting.
    Yes and No, I haven't seen any body has built-in IS (have heard some) to
    start with, and I have never done any research about those. Cuz to me it
    isn't an important part, or I don't have much time to waste on wishful
    thing, or easier way out.
    I have never read anything about Pentax, never owned any Nikon etc.. but I
    have a feeling that you are more interesting about $$$$ than building a
    camera system.

    I can tell you that going for DSLR is not going to be expensive, but you
    will need lot more than just Pentax vs Nikon. Here is a general answer

    - Get a GOOD LENS to go with the body. For the lens you may want to check
    with www.fredmiranda.com REVIEWS to read the end users' feedbacks. And
    depending on the body, sometime the lens will cost more than body.

    And if you want good IQ (Image Quality) and more chance to capture sharp,
    clean image then Good Fast Lens is the way to go. And a top-notch xx-200
    lens you may be looking at around $1000-1700 (for example).
    You said you have done lot of research, but to me you will need to do much
    more, and don't pay much attention to wishful thing but whatever system you
    try to build.
     
    Joel, Nov 26, 2007
    #3
  4. Eichler34

    Pat Guest

    As antidotal information, it appears the Canon uses like their
    Canons. Nikon users really like their Nikons. But Pentax users LOVE
    their Pentaxs. I don't know if it's the counter cultural thing or the
    egronomics or the interface, but Pentax users are a breed apart and
    have much more love of their equipment than either Nikon or Canon
    users.

    If you look around, you are probably likely to find used pentax glass
    at a more reasonable price than used Nikon that will fit a newer
    camera.

    If you're not tied into another line, then don't be afraid of Pentax
    just because it isn't Nikon.
     
    Pat, Nov 26, 2007
    #4
  5. Eichler34

    Mr. Strat Guest

    Maybe they don't know any better.
     
    Mr. Strat, Nov 26, 2007
    #5
  6. Eichler34

    Celcius Guest

    How about an Olympus 510?
    It's well rated, has stabilization within its body as well as quite a lot of
    goodies* :
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse510/
    and sometimes, you get 2 lenses at one shot :)
    Marcel

    _______________________________________
    a.. 10 Megapixels Digital SLR Camera
    b.. 2.5 inch HyperCrystal LCD screen
    c.. Live MOS Sensor
    d.. Imager shift image stabilizer
    e.. 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 Zuiko Digital Lens
    f.. Sequential shooting speed - Approx. 3 frames/sec.
    g.. Live View - Live-MOS Sensor for still picture shooting is used, 100%
    field of view, Exposure adjustment pre-view, White balance adjustment
    pre-view, Grid line displayable, 7x/10x magnification possible, MF/S-AF, AF
    frame display, AF point display, Shooting information, Histogram, IS
    activating mode, Heat warning
    h.. Dust reduction - Supersonic Wave Filter (dust reduction system for
    image sensor)
    i.. Picture Mode - Vivid, Natural, Muted, Monotone (default setting:
    Natural)
    j.. Picture tone - Sepia, Blue, Purple or Green tone available for
    Monotone
    k.. Metering system - TTL open-aperture metering system: Digital ESP
    metering (49-point multi pattern metering), Centre weighted average
    metering, Spot metering (approx. 1% for the viewfinder screen), Spot with
    Highlight control, Spot with Shadow control
    l.. Exposure mode - Auto, Program AE, Aperture priority AE, Shutter
    priority AE, Manual, Scene program AE, Scene select AE
    m.. Memory - CompactFlash Type I/II, Microdrive, xD-Picture Card
    (Dual-Slot)
    n.. Recording format - DCF, DPOF compatible/Exif, PRINT Image Matching III
    o.. File format - RAW (12-bit), JPEG, RAW+JPEG
    p.. Scene program AE Portrait, Landscape, Macro, Sport, Night + Portrait
    q.. JPEG editing - Monotone, Sepia, Red-eye reduction, Saturation (color
    depth), Resize (producing another file)
    r.. Print function - Print reservation (DPOF), Direct print (PictBridge
    compatible)
    s.. PC interface - USB 2.0 High Speed for storage and camera control (MTP
    mode is available)
    t.. Power Requirements - BLM-1 Li-ion battery (included)
    u.. Dimensions - 5.35 in.(W) x 3.6 in. (W) x 2.67in. (D) / 136 mm (W) x
    91.5 mm (H) x 68 mm (D) (excluding protrusions)
    v.. Weight - 16.2 oz. / 460 g (body only)
     
    Celcius, Nov 26, 2007
    #6
  7. Eichler34

    dj_nme Guest

    Some Nikon lenses have IS/VR/AS (image stabilisation), where-as none of
    the Pentax lenses do.
    For the simple reason that all Pentax DSLR cameras on the market now
    have sensor-shift AS, so there is no need for AS lenses for Pentax.
    As a general rule, if IS/VR/AS (image stabilisation) is built into the
    body, then it won't be in the lenses (the only exception seems to 4/3:
    Olympus bodies Vs Leica lenses).
    There only seems to be a few bodies which have both an AF motor and
    contacts for in-lens motor, the two current Pentax DSLR cameras and all
    Nikons except the bottom model (D40x ?).
    With Pentax there are no IS/VR/AS (image stabilisation) lenses, so there
    can't be a "fight" between the sensor-shift AS and in-lens AS.
    The same with Nikon, for the opposite reason.
    It could conceivably happen with FourThirds, some Olympus DSLR camera
    bodies have AS built in (like the Pentax DSLR cameras), there are some
    FourThirds AS lenses (similar to Nikon IS) and mixing the two could have
    interesting results
     
    dj_nme, Nov 26, 2007
    #7
  8. Eichler34

    DBLEXPOSURE Guest

    John,

    I bet you watch pro sports. Take a look at the Photogs on the sidelines,
    They are shooting either Canon or Nikon and have choice glass to boot. They
    make their living with their gear and you can bet they have more invested in
    glass than in camera bodies.

    I like to say, "buy a lens and put a camera on it".

    Feature rich cameras are nice but you will find that you never use all of
    the features anyway. The important thing is to get the feature you want.
    Of course you do not know yet what features are important to you.

    You also do not know what you are going to do with the photos. 4X6 prints
    and the occasional 8X10 (8X12)? Web site and email?

    The D40X is a good choice, I have heard good things... I'm like Canon and
    would push you towards the XTi. Either will do justice and are good entry
    level DSLR's

    More important than any of this is to develop the skill of taking good
    photographs. So many see that big black machine with the words Canon or
    Nikon on it and think that the photos will automatically turn out great, not
    true...

    Learn to compose, expose and edit... Read. Shoot tons of photos,
    experiment, get critiques. Stay away from the NG's and post images and good
    critique sites like DPreveiw, Usefilm, Pop Photo and Shutterbug. There are
    many others...
     
    DBLEXPOSURE, Nov 26, 2007
    #8
  9. Eichler34

    Ken Hart Guest

    It is entirely possible that Nikon may be paying a promomtional commission
    to salespeople.

    Which camera 'feels' best? Which one is easier for YOU to use? Historically,
    Nikons have been the cameras of professionals and Pentax has been the camera
    for beginners. So much for the snob factor!
    Explore the features and accessories available for each camera, and pick the
    one that you think will give you what you want.
     
    Ken Hart, Nov 27, 2007
    #9
  10. Eichler34

    Cats Guest

    Did he say *why* he thought it better to have the featuers in the
    lens?
    Both cameras have optically excellent lenses available. With the
    Pentax, you can use any Pentax lens with it, even the old M42 thread
    ones with an adapter. Obviously that won't make a manual focus lens
    into an autofocus one, but it opens up using lots of very good lenses
    brought reasonably on Ebay.

    As to which is the absolute best lens - you probably don't want to
    spend that much money...
    The autofocus method was never anything to do with the lens - it's the
    motor that's in the lens for the D30x, not the mechanism for
    determining where to focus. And my view is that having image
    stabilisation in the body is good as I get a much wider choice of
    lenses from both the original maker and 3rd party makers.
    There are no Pentax lenses with IS so they can't compete.


    And as someone else said, have you been to a shop to try the cameras
    out? I'm sure you woudn't buy a quality suit based on magazine
    reviews - you'd want to try it one and see how it fits. The same with
    a camera IMHO.
     
    Cats, Nov 27, 2007
    #10
  11. Eichler34

    Chris Hills Guest

    Good lenses are a must. They will stay with you longer than the camera
    body. Later you can buy the Nikon D300 or D400 as you progress and
    still use the same lenses.

    The other thing is don't get hung up on specs. a good picture depends on
    what is in the frame. That is down to you (and the lens to some extent)
    not the spec of the camera body.

    VR is not a "must" it was not used for the first 200 years of
    photography. If you are doing low light it is useful but not
    essential.... (use a tripod :)

    It depends what the kids sports are. If it is indoor in a well lit hall
    you are not going to need VR.
     
    Chris Hills, Nov 27, 2007
    #11
  12. Eichler34

    dadiOH Guest

    That's because they have always been innovative and made good stuff.
    Even when they were Asahi.

    My general feeling (and experience over 50+ years) is that 90% of
    those who buy Nikon/Canon/Hasselblad do so because of name
    recognition.

    --

    dadiOH
    ____________________________

    dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
    ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
    LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
    Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
     
    dadiOH, Nov 27, 2007
    #12
  13. Eichler34

    Celcius Guest

    dadiOH,
    What experience?
    Why 90%, not 89%... or 91% ???
    Based on what? The facts? Give us the facts!
    There are owners who bought a make because of price.
    There are those who buy because they get 2 lenses with the deal.
    There are those who buy because they already have the lenses.
    There are those who buy through strong recommendations from a friend,
    family, etc.
    I could go on and on...
    By the way, 50+ is not a measure in any way.
    There is this saying which goes thus: There is no fool like an OLD fool
    ;-)))))))
    I bought my first camera in 1959 (Pentax). I don't even remember why. I was
    21 at the time. That doesn't make me an expert in anything, not even
    cameras.
    Take care Ole man ;-)
    Marcel
     
    Celcius, Nov 27, 2007
    #13
  14. Eichler34

    Chris Hills Guest

    I think he is right. Many will by the brand leaders because of the
    name/reputation. It is the same in any field.

    This is not to say the other makes are not good.

    With cameras it is as much the camera you feel physically happy using as
    much as the spec or the name.

    That said there is a certain quality of lens you don't want to drop
    below (all we would all be using 6Mp camera phones :- )
     
    Chris Hills, Nov 27, 2007
    #14
  15. Eichler34

    dadiOH Guest

    Observing people buy things when they had nary a clue as to *why* they
    were buying it or even what they wanted.

    If you'd like to acquire vast experience quickly, go camp out in an
    electronics store for a while.
    ______________
    Pure conjecture. In hindsight, I was probably too low.
    ________________
    See above.
    _______________
    Insecure and unknowledgeable.
    ______________
    But they have more experience which is something young ones lack :)
    ________________
    So I beat you by a couple of decades. A shame you missed mechanical
    syncronization. And ASA (ISO) 10 color film.
    ________________
    My guess would be marketing hype. Or on advice of a friend :)
    __________________
    Keep trying, you'll get there.
    _________________
    You too, kiddo :)



    --

    dadiOH
    ____________________________

    dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
    ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
    LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
    Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
     
    dadiOH, Nov 27, 2007
    #15
  16. Eichler34

    Joel Guest

    Neah! the pros those buy Canon and Nikon because of religion <bg>
     
    Joel, Nov 27, 2007
    #16
  17. Eichler34

    Akiralx Guest

    Either will be fine, I'm a Nikon man so know about them. But handle both
    and get which feels best.

    Remember though: image stabilisation, whether in-body or in-lens, will do
    nothing for subject motion, e.g. sports, which you said will be your main
    subject. IS is only good for camera shake.

    For sports you need fast shutter speeds (1/500th or faster perhaps) - and
    that means fast glass, i.e. with a wide maximum aperture, preferably of f/2
    or better. So for example an f/4.5 - f/5.6 zoom won't do it (can't recall
    what the Nikon 55-200VR is but it's not fast). With such a commercial zoom
    your shots will be blurred, dark or both.
     
    Akiralx, Nov 27, 2007
    #17
  18. Eichler34

    Celcius Guest

    Joel,
    I guess you're right, but I thought there was only one God?
    Now, you've got to tell us which is which ;-)))
    Marcel
     
    Celcius, Nov 27, 2007
    #18
  19. Eichler34

    Celcius Guest

    dadiOH
    I have to admit, you made me laugh.
    I love one liners!
    Have a great week.
    Marcel
     
    Celcius, Nov 27, 2007
    #19
  20. Eichler34

    Joel Guest

    Well, may be there is only one God (I visited her years ago <bg>), but you
    know we have multi religions. Matter fact, we have too many religions
    causing religious war for centuries and still exist these days <bg>
     
    Joel, Nov 27, 2007
    #20
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