Rapid selenium and film

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Lew, Jan 8, 2004.

  1. Lew

    Lew Guest

    I'm planning to include Rapid selenium toner in my Kodak HCA in order to
    improve the archival quality of my negatives. I _assume_ that there won't be
    any changes in contrast at high dilutions, but I can't find any info on
    whether or not color shift, if there is any, in the image will affect
    printing on vc papers. I already understand not to use it with staining
    developers. Comments and suggestions appreciated.

    -Lew
     
    Lew, Jan 8, 2004
    #1
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  2. Lew

    Tom Phillips Guest

    Selenium will always add some density, depending on the dilution and
    time. The problem is at higher dilutions it will also split tone (tone
    dense highlight areas and not shadow areas.) If you want to use selenium
    it might be a good idea to adjust your film development to compensate
    for toner added density and tone at a higher concentration (maybe 1:9.)

    A polysulfide toner like Kodak Brown Toner seems to be a better choice
    for archival toning of negs. Brown toner usually results in cold tones
    on film, but I don't know either way if the color change will affect VC
    printing. The advantage is KBT tones all negative densities the same so
    any amount of toning should protect the entire negative.

    A couple of differences is that you need to fully wash the film before
    toning in Brown toner, and use a 10% sulfite solution as a stop bath
    before washing after toning. Otherwise toning may continue uncontrolled
    and might stain the highlights. You can use stock (undiluted) Kodak Hypo
    Clearing Agent for this.

    Kodak has a PDF publication, G-23 Toning KODAK Black-and-White
    Materials, that has additional info. If your address is good I can email
    it. Richard Knoppow knows quite a bit also.
     
    Tom Phillips, Jan 8, 2004
    #2
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  3. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Hi Tom:
    Yes, my address is good. Please forward the info when you've got the
    time.

    -Lew
     
    Lew, Jan 8, 2004
    #3
  4. Lew

    Lew Guest

    .... also, are there any know issues with image color shifting and using a
    digital scanner?
     
    Lew, Jan 8, 2004
    #4
  5. Lew

    Tom Phillips Guest

    Depends on the scanner and Dmax. Not all scanners are equal and to make
    the best of a good scan you need a calibrated system (i.e., scan to
    image processing software and monitor to printer output; each device
    color space needs calibrating with the other to avoid unwanted shifts in color.)

    In other words, what you're dealing with in digital is device color
    space, which once scanned determines the color gamut of the images both
    as seen on the display and as output. No device color space can match
    the range and depth of "true color" available in original color films.
    Meaning as you transfer a digital color image through the various stages
    (scanning, image processing, and output) or from one file format to
    another, you lose color information. Prepress professionals always work
    in device independent modes for this reason (.tiff files, etc.) rather
    than JPEG.
     
    Tom Phillips, Jan 8, 2004
    #5
  6. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Yeh, but for bw negs, I'll be doing greyscale scans so color shifting due to
    toning should only make a difference on the hardware end of the scanner and
    not the rest of the system ( I hope).

    -Lew
     
    Lew, Jan 8, 2004
    #6
  7. Lew

    Tom Phillips Guest

    Then I don't know what the concern would be. Unless you scan in color, I
    don't see how you'd pick up any toning coloration.

    BTW, the PDF was emailed, but I did not respond to the spam filter request.
     
    Tom Phillips, Jan 8, 2004
    #7
  8. Lew

    nick Guest

    Lew

    What leads you to think you are not already doing enough? My Tri and
    Plus X negatives from 30 years ago are fine. Processing then as now
    included 3 min Rapid Fix 3 min HCA and 5 min wash. Densities from Zone
    tests then have not changed. Today I made a beautiful print of a sand
    dune originally done in 1980.
    With those films the total process was presoak 1min in Photoflo,
    appropriate time in HC110 B, 30 sec Short Stop, fix, HCA, wash and 1
    min Photoflo. I don't see that you can improve on the staying power of
    these films. I might change my mind 100 years from now, but can't
    worry about that.

    Nick
     
    nick, Jan 9, 2004
    #8
  9. Lew

    nick Guest

    Lew

    What leads you to think you are not already doing enough? My Tri and
    Plus X negatives from 30 years ago are fine. Processing then as now
    included 3 min Rapid Fix 3 min HCA and 5 min wash. Densities from Zone
    tests then have not changed. Today I made a beautiful print of a sand
    dune originally done in 1980.
    With those films the total process was presoak 1min in Photoflo,
    appropriate time in HC110 B, 30 sec Short Stop, fix, HCA, wash and 1
    min Photoflo. I don't see that you can improve on the staying power of
    these films. I might change my mind 100 years from now, but can't
    worry about that.

    Nick
     
    nick, Jan 9, 2004
    #9
  10. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Nick:
    True, true. My negs from the stone ages are still fine, too, but why
    pass up a well documented opportunity to worry?

    -Lew
     
    Lew, Jan 9, 2004
    #10
  11. Lew

    nick Guest


    Lew

    Stone Age??

    Jeesh! You know how to hurt a guy.

    I didn't mention that in the past few weeks I printed several
    negatives from 1960 done of my farmer relatives in South Italy with a
    used Rollicord and Verichrome Pan which will be included in my
    upcoming shows in May and September. Believe me, Stone Age or not, you
    don't need the SRT for your film unless you are worrying about your
    great-great-great grandchildren's inheritance of your Da Vinci like
    treasures.

    But you may be right. To pass up an opportunity to worry was to my
    mother almost a sin against God.

    So enjoy! Worry.

    Nick
     
    nick, Jan 10, 2004
    #11
  12. Lew

    nick Guest


    Lew

    Stone Age??

    Jeesh! You know how to hurt a guy.

    I didn't mention that in the past few weeks I printed several
    negatives from 1960 done of my farmer relatives in South Italy with a
    used Rollicord and Verichrome Pan which will be included in my
    upcoming shows in May and September. Believe me, Stone Age or not, you
    don't need the SRT for your film unless you are worrying about your
    great-great-great grandchildren's inheritance of your Da Vinci like
    treasures.

    But you may be right. To pass up an opportunity to worry was to my
    mother almost a sin against God.

    So enjoy! Worry.

    Nick
     
    nick, Jan 10, 2004
    #12
  13. Lew

    nick Guest


    Lew

    Stone Age??

    Jeesh! You know how to hurt a guy.

    I didn't mention that in the past few weeks I printed several
    negatives from 1960 done of my farmer relatives in South Italy with a
    used Rollicord and Verichrome Pan which will be included in my
    upcoming shows in May and September. Believe me, Stone Age or not, you
    don't need the SRT for your film unless you are worrying about your
    great-great-great grandchildren's inheritance of your Da Vinci like
    treasures.

    But you may be right. To pass up an opportunity to worry was to my
    mother almost a sin against God.

    So enjoy! Worry.

    Nick
     
    nick, Jan 10, 2004
    #13
  14. Lew

    nick Guest


    Lew

    Stone Age??

    Jeesh! You know how to hurt a guy.

    I didn't mention that in the past few weeks I printed several
    negatives from 1960 done of my farmer relatives in South Italy with a
    used Rollicord and Verichrome Pan which will be included in my
    upcoming shows in May and September. Believe me, Stone Age or not, you
    don't need the SRT for your film unless you are worrying about your
    great-great-great grandchildren's inheritance of your Da Vinci like
    treasures.

    But you may be right. To pass up an opportunity to worry was to my
    mother almost a sin against God.

    So enjoy! Worry.

    Nick
     
    nick, Jan 10, 2004
    #14
  15. Lew

    nick Guest


    Lew

    Stone Age??

    Jeesh! You know how to hurt a guy.

    I didn't mention that in the past few weeks I printed several
    negatives from 1960 done of my farmer relatives in South Italy with a
    used Rollicord and Verichrome Pan which will be included in my
    upcoming shows in May and September. Believe me, Stone Age or not, you
    don't need the SRT for your film unless you are worrying about your
    great-great-great grandchildren's inheritance of your Da Vinci like
    treasures.

    But you may be right. To pass up an opportunity to worry was to my
    mother almost a sin against God.

    So enjoy! Worry.

    Nick
     
    nick, Jan 10, 2004
    #15
  16. Lew

    nick Guest


    Lew

    Stone Age??

    Jeesh! You know how to hurt a guy.

    I didn't mention that in the past few weeks I printed several
    negatives from 1960 done of my farmer relatives in South Italy with a
    used Rollicord and Verichrome Pan which will be included in my
    upcoming shows in May and September. Believe me, Stone Age or not, you
    don't need the SRT for your film unless you are worrying about your
    great-great-great grandchildren's inheritance of your Da Vinci like
    treasures.

    But you may be right. To pass up an opportunity to worry was to my
    mother almost a sin against God.

    So enjoy! Worry.

    Nick
     
    nick, Jan 10, 2004
    #16
  17. Lew

    nick Guest


    Lew

    Stone Age??

    Jeesh! You know how to hurt a guy.

    I didn't mention that in the past few weeks I printed several
    negatives from 1960 done of my farmer relatives in South Italy with a
    used Rollicord and Verichrome Pan which will be included in my
    upcoming shows in May and September. Believe me, Stone Age or not, you
    don't need the SRT for your film unless you are worrying about your
    great-great-great grandchildren's inheritance of your Da Vinci like
    treasures.

    But you may be right. To pass up an opportunity to worry was to my
    mother almost a sin against God.

    So enjoy! Worry.

    Nick
     
    nick, Jan 10, 2004
    #17
  18. Lew

    nick Guest


    Lew

    Stone Age??

    Jeesh! You know how to hurt a guy.

    I didn't mention that in the past few weeks I printed several
    negatives from 1960 done of my farmer relatives in South Italy with a
    used Rollicord and Verichrome Pan which will be included in my
    upcoming shows in May and September. Believe me, Stone Age or not, you
    don't need the SRT for your film unless you are worrying about your
    great-great-great grandchildren's inheritance of your Da Vinci like
    treasures.

    But you may be right. To pass up an opportunity to worry was to my
    mother almost a sin against God.

    So enjoy! Worry.

    Nick
     
    nick, Jan 10, 2004
    #18
  19. Lew

    Tom Phillips Guest


    Hey, if the guy wants to tone his negatives he can tone his negatives.
    It doesn't make one a religious fanatic. There are beneficial reasons to
    tone, and no adverse reasons not to tone.

    BTW, I think you made your point (whatever it was) with the first of
    your 8 posts.
     
    Tom Phillips, Jan 10, 2004
    #19
  20. While toning is a standard treatment for microfilm its
    probably not necessary for pictorial film. The vulnerability
    to oxidation of the image silver depends on its grain size;
    the finer the grain the more vulnerable it is. This is also
    why prints are more vulnerable than film.
    Pictorial film is generally much coarser grained than
    either microfilm or print emulsions.
    Highly diluted (1:19) Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner was for a
    long time a standard treatment for microfilm. It was then
    discovered that something had changed and it was no longer
    working.
    Polysulfide toners, like Kodak Brown Toner, have been
    found to be effective and to have only minor effect on image
    density and grain morphology (this last is important for
    microfilm but probably not for pictorial film). Another
    standard toner is Gold/Thiscyanate (Kodak GP-2). This is
    also commonly used for microfilm but is expensive compared
    to either Selenium or Polysulfide.
    The use of 1:19 KRST will not damage the film but _may_
    not give full protection to low density areas of the film.
    Another alternative is the use of an image stabilizer such
    as Agfa Sistan or Fugi Ag-Guard. These are not as effective
    as toning but do impart significant protection. They have no
    effect on the image.
    There has been considerable research in this area in the
    last dozen years. A good place to start is the Image
    Permanence Institute at http://www.rit.edu/~661www1/
     
    Richard Knoppow, Jan 10, 2004
    #20
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