Raw Convertors

So why do you keep calling them "Germans"?

Did mean "legions" and "auxilliaries"?

That depends on your definition of babarians. Your definition
seems to be "everyone not of the ruling group or nationality at
that time", which makes practically all nomads into barbarians.
Other, more sensible definitions of barbarian exist, stressing
such things as "dependence on a civilisation for plunder and
slaves", which would exclude practically all nomads.

Who, the Greeks or the Romans?

Yes, take the red Indians and the blessings *they* got from
so called civilisation, from firewater to smallpox, from broken
promises to glass beads, from starving in reservations to wholesale
slaughter.

If you cannot attack the truth of a statement, denigrate the
messenger ...

Ah, yes, you *really* believe in the Greeks and Romans and their
"everyone but us is barbaric". (The Chinese never measured
any Germanic tribe.)

Surely a viewpoint that echos your own civilisatory superiority,
so why care about the right, the wrong and the hubris of it?

Ah, yes, one of the very moral decisions to rob the Indians
by brute force, which backfired a bit.

Let's mention that it wasn't a regiment. Custer had only 650
men with him --- a far sight from 20.000.

Let's mention that Custer brought the defeat on himself.
Let's mention that the Indian weaponry was *at least* equal or
superior for that kind of fight he found himself in --- while
denying his men the cavalry sabers turned out to be not such
a blessing.

2000 poorly equipped[1], ill-prepared and undisciplined amateur
6-month levies --- 1400 regulars and 86 officers which have
*not* deserted or legally left as they reach the Wabash river
one month later.
A commander barely speaking with his second in command.
A commander so ill that he has to be carried in a litter at times.
An "army" that was spooked by yelling and that ran, leaving the
dead and wounded and everything after suffering, admittedly,
40-50% dead --- and had luck that the enemy largely ignored
the rout.

And that ... that mob is compared to Rome's pride? To 20.000
men who'd march with 50kg on their backs?

How many percent of the population that day?

Yes, the influx from all the immigrants, many from good old
Germany, did help a lot. 1000 dead a day is nothing compared to
Somme, for example. But then the USA tends to let other nations
do the dying and the tiring of the enemy, like the British and
French ...

The Yanks rode as much roughshod over the Heer as did the
Limeys at the same time.

True enough. Still, killing 20.000 well equipped, dangerous,
trained *soldiers* takes a lot of trying --- especially if
you have to do it all by hand, since machine guns weren't
invented back then.

So they are not 'qualified as "barbarians," by any
definition'. That was my point.

Of course, in the US at times free speech was illegal and disloyal
statements a federal crime (and don't forget McCarthyism), still
they are the very democratic example everyone should aspire to,
if you ask them.

Please look closer. It was mostly reported in Spain because of
censorship issues elsewhere, but it was imported via the USA,
it seems.

Yep, and we should do the same to a couple of other highly
civilized nations for parts of their current behaviour.

Oh, it did thwart the US. Just look up the submarine
operations --- the US didn't listen to the British who were old
hands at that and started out as babes in the woods. *Regular*
destroyer patrols, exactly on time, every time. What a way
to ... surprise ... experts.

The world is just lucky that internal struggles (e.g. "England
will never be our enemy" stuff) kept the sub force small, instead
of, say, 300 atlantic capable subs[2] at the begin of the war, as
asked for by Dönitz. (Germany started with 57 submarines, less
than half of then atlantic capable!) And that the Walter boats
(28+ knots under water in tests in 1940) and their 'downgrade',
the electroboats (e.g. the XXI) never came out in real numbers.
And that Dönitz required his subs to report often (up to 2000
radio messages per day from and to subs) --- and "Huff Duff"
worked well. And so on. No problems with technology as such.

Yes, that's two points. It wasn't technology (or inferior troops
or attacking superior numbers) that got Varus --- point one.

Point two, there seems to be a difference between the USA doing
the "Manifest Destiny" dance and other countries dancing to the
same tune under a different name, like "Lebensraum im Osten".
Oh well, the victors run the courts and print the history books,
so if the victor is the perpetrator, he often gets away.

-Wolfgang

[1] Thin summer tents, and leaving only in mid-september, when
the weather is already turning cold.
Only 15 hatchets, 18 axes, 12 hammers and 24 handsaws for all
the originally planned 3000 men --- the supplier prefers
to spend government money on land speculation together
with his friend, the Secretary of War.
Damaged, reprocessed gunpowder --- at least one surviver saw
his musket balls bouncing off of Indians.
A horsemaster who had never been in the woods in his life.
Many hundred(!) pack horses injured fighting for food.
The food was not in troughts, it was stupidly scattered
on the ground.
Turning horses loose in the woods. At night. No bells,
no hobbles. Predictably dozens were lost or stolen.

[2] Which would indicate 100 on station, 100 on the way there
or back home and 100 refitting and resting at any time.