Raw photo software

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Mayayana, Aug 11, 2012.

  1. Mayayana

    Guest Guest

    but not one *you* picked. it will typically use a default value.

    if that is acceptable, then you don't need to do anything. usually, it
    isn't, and the white balance needs to be adjusted.
     
    Guest, Aug 18, 2012
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  2. Mayayana

    Guest Guest

    it does it using the raw data.
     
    Guest, Aug 18, 2012
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  3. Mayayana

    tony cooper Guest

    Yes, I agree with that. What I want to know is "How does one remove
    the white balance?". That white balance can be *removed* has been
    postulated, and I'm asking "How?".

    Floyd has skirted the subject with a voluminous "explanation" that
    states a default that can be changed, but conveniently skips over
    "removal".

    You have said "don't apply it" [sic] I assume what you mean is "Don't
    apply a *change*".

    Changing a default is not removing. It is simply re-setting. Not
    applying a new setting is not removing. It is simply allowing the
    default to remain in force. What's difficult to understand about
    this?

    I'm fully aware that the white balance can be changed. I do it all
    the time. I'm also fully aware that the image out-of-camera has the
    default setting.
     
    tony cooper, Aug 18, 2012
  4. Mayayana

    Savageduck Guest

    With your tongue jammed that firmly in you cheek, you might do yourself
    an injury when you can no longer control yourself and start laughing
    hysterically.
     
    Savageduck, Aug 18, 2012
  5. Mayayana

    tony cooper Guest

    If not, you are so delusional that you think you have explained how
    white balance can be removed when you have not.
    Evidently.

    I am not at all embarrassed that a non-answer is too much for me to
    take as an answer no matter how much that non-answer is buried in
    fustian camouflage.

    To use another analogy, you cannot conceal that you are out-on-a-limb
    by covering yourself with leaves.
     
    tony cooper, Aug 18, 2012
  6. Mayayana

    Guest Guest

    by not applying the transform.

    in aperture, you can click the little checkbox next to an adjustment
    and it will be applied or not applied. in this screen shot, only a
    level adjustment is done:
    <http://documentation.apple.com/en/aperture/usermanual/Art/S00/S0021_Def
    aultIns.png>

    camera raw doesn't expose that in the user interface but internally it
    can skip something if it doesn't need to recalculate it.
    if you want to nitpick (and i'm sure you do), yes, there's a default
    white balance that gets applied. it's a baseline that is going to
    happen no matter what adjustments you make.

    the point is that a raw converter can optimize what it needs to do. if
    all you do is change the sharpening, then there is no need to
    recalculate the white balance.
     
    Guest, Aug 18, 2012
  7. Mayayana

    otter Guest

    And in a non-destructive work flow, which I think is the crux of the
    issue.
     
    otter, Aug 18, 2012
  8. Mayayana

    tony cooper Guest

    So the "nitpick" has forced you out to admit that white balance is not
    removed.
    No, the *point* is that the white balance is not removed.

    OK, now that you have finally come clean and agreed that the white
    balance is not removed, and the default white balance remains, let's
    see if we can get Floyd to talk sense.

    That stuff about the RAW converter optimizing is irrelative to the
    *point*.

    BTW..."recalculate" is another way of describing "change", not
    "removal".
     
    tony cooper, Aug 18, 2012
  9. Mayayana

    Guest Guest

    sometimes it is. if the white balance that has already been calculated
    is still valid then there's no need to recalculate it again, so it's
    removed from the list of transforms done and *not* done a second time.

    on the other hand, if you make an adjustment that does affect white
    balance, then what's cached is invalid and the white balance will need
    to be recalculated. in that case, it's not removed.
    good luck on that.
    it's *very* relevant. it does not do calculations it doesn't need to
    do, and skips them by removing them from the list.
    and when the recalculation is skipped, then that calculation is
    removed. very simple.
     
    Guest, Aug 18, 2012
  10. Mayayana

    Guest Guest

    it sure is.
     
    Guest, Aug 18, 2012
  11. Mayayana

    Alan Browne Guest


    I haven't been following this splinter-thread much, but the first point
    of raw files is that the raw _image data_ is not changed at all.

    Anything you "do" to a raw file in the raw converter just changes a
    bunch of parameters that are sidecar'd or embedded in the raw (as EXIF
    or other embedded, non image data). The raw converter/viewer then
    applies those parameters to the image data that is _displayed or thrown
    to the editor_. And that last image data going over to the editor is
    _not_ the raw image data but the _image data_ as _affected_ by _the
    applied settings_.

    Within a given raw converter session, the parameters are applied as you
    change them one at a time. Set the white balance. Done. Black point.
    Done. And so on. When you say "done" those settings are written into
    the EXIF (or other) data in the raw data file (or sidecar) but the _raw
    image data_ in that file is unaltered.

    So the next time you open the same raw file, then all those settings are
    re-applied. None can be ignored because the raw image data is still the
    same, original, unaltered raw image data that came out of the camera.

    In my case the white balance is set in PS raw as the "As shot" value
    from the camera. So the value from the raw data file (the parameter
    stored by the camera in the file (but not changing the raw image data))
    is used. Change occurs. Just not to the _raw image data_.
     
    Alan Browne, Aug 18, 2012
  12. Mayayana

    PeterN Guest

    Thank you for clarifying. Following your logic, if I make no change to
    the information contained in an image, since the information is not
    changed, it is removed and I get a blank image.
    I finally understand.
     
    PeterN, Aug 18, 2012
  13. Mayayana

    tony cooper Guest

    So, in your mind, if something that has already been calculated, and
    does not need to be recalculated, then that means that it is
    "removed".

    I'd like to do that with my credit card statement. If I don't
    recalculate the balance, the balance is removed.

    Don't bullshit me with "removed from the list of transforms (that need
    to be) done (again)." That would mean that anything that needs not to
    be done a second time is removed.
    No, no, no. No more bullshit about "removing them from the list".
    "Removed" means "removed", not conditionally removed as in no longer
    on a list.
    Good Lord! You think "removed" means "not done" or "not necessary to
    do again".

    Removed = taken away, gone, now absent, not here anymore, etc.
     
    tony cooper, Aug 18, 2012
  14. Mayayana

    tony cooper Guest

    I am fascinated by this logic. It like watching a snake devour itself
    by eating its own tail.

    By your reckoning, if I open a RAW file and make no changes at all, I
    have removed white balance, tint, exposure, recovery, fill light,
    blacks, brightness, contrast, clarity, vibrance, and saturation.

    What do I have left?
     
    tony cooper, Aug 18, 2012
  15. Mayayana

    Alan Browne Guest

    You're right for the instance at hand. But when the file is re-opened
    then all of the settings have to be re-run against the raw data in the file.
    All of it.

    See my other post.

    The raw file data is never changed. Only the 'settings' data.

    So nospam is right for given instance of running the raw converter, but
    when it is re-run on the same file (opened again) then all the settings
    have to be re-applied to the data.
     
    Alan Browne, Aug 18, 2012
  16. Mayayana

    Savageduck Guest

    ....gone to join the choir invisible.
    Where are Cleese and a parrot when you need them?
     
    Savageduck, Aug 18, 2012
  17. Mayayana

    tony cooper Guest

    That skit was running through my mind. Also, the cheese shop skit
    where all of the cheeses had been removed.
     
    tony cooper, Aug 19, 2012
  18. Mayayana

    tony cooper Guest

    Come on, Alan. All that's understood.
    I challenge "removed". He's weaseling and now saying "removed from
    the list", but white balance is not removed.

    You came late to the thread and haven't seen the absurd claims.
    You've just seen the hasty cover-up.
     
    tony cooper, Aug 19, 2012
  19. Mayayana

    Savageduck Guest

    "No Caerphilly sir, I have some camembert, but it's a bit runny."
     
    Savageduck, Aug 19, 2012
  20. Mayayana

    Guest Guest

    it doesn't work that way and that's not what i said.
    you clearly do not.
     
    Guest, Aug 19, 2012
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