Re: Boycott Panasonic cameras - forced proprietary battery use infirmware

Discussion in 'Panasonic Lumix' started by ray, Jun 21, 2009.

  1. ray

    ray Guest

    I doubt Sony would worry themselves over such an issue - after all many
    of their cameras already require proprietary memory cards!
    ray, Jun 21, 2009
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  2. Swap the card? Do you want that? Not really. You want to
    transmit the data!

    First, there are solutions like Eye-Fi.

    Second, of course you don't want to swap your mobile phone's
    card(s) any more than you want to swap (internal) hard drives in
    your computer. MicroSD cards are user upgradeable and you
    can carry them over from your last phone, but that's it.

    You certainly don't want to handle cards smaller than an SD
    when you are not sitting at your well-lit, uncluttered desk.
    Changing while walking works only sorta with an SD, and just
    OKish with an CF. And you'll have a chance of spotting them
    when you should drop them, unlike todays microscopic phone
    storage devices.

    The real solution is to tether your camera to your phone/data
    transmission tool. Hence phone cameras. And bluetooth, since
    cables are awkward, never around when you need them and prone
    to be lost.[1] And docking stations for cameras, tying the camera
    to the computer without having to remove the card. And EyeFi,
    tethering your transmission tool to your camera. And IP-capable
    cameras, remotely over the internet steerable 'web' camera designs.
    And WiFi-handgrips for some DSLRs.


    [1] Bluetooth is widely available in mobile phones, smart phones,
    PDAs, netbooks, laptops, etc. Computers can easily be
    upgraded to bluetooth. Interfaces for bluetooth should
    be all standardized, as I understand it, and usable for
    transmitting data. It's also not hampered by the wish for
    even tinier memory packages for mobile phones and mutually
    incompatible flash memory interface designs.
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 23, 2009
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  3. You'll have to explain that to me, I don't get it. How does that
    work with the fast & good SD cards I have for my cameras and the
    single, just-good-enough microSD I filled with stuff for my phone?

    As I see it, to be able to transmit the data this way, I would have
    to re-buy all the storage I might need (and currently have in SD
    cards) in microSD cards, and that's not "$0.00 additional expense".
    A great idea. I even might find them now in the high grass if
    a tiny puff of wind blows the 0.4 gramms away --- that gives me
    a warm feeling.

    Maybe it's my large hands, maybe it's that I am a clutz, but I
    don't feel comfortable changing SD cards in the field, how do
    you suppose I feel with microSD?


    PS: Luckily, there are even microSD to CF "converters".
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 24, 2009
  4. Disliking an implementation does not indicate grasping the idea.
    You don't pay me to speak for you, so stop complaining.
    Good enough. Just don't complain the next time someone tells
    you to just do something you and most people are not able to
    do competently for some reason. It's your problem, not mine or
    anyone elses.
    If your real world really needs swapping microSD cards because
    no better solution is possible, ever, then that's your choice
    and all I can do is wish you the best of luck.

    Don't assume everyone will share your 'vision' of the future and
    the real world.

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 24, 2009
  5. Personal experience tells me someting quite different to your
    claims. Maybe you only drive in tunnels. Maybe you should
    upgrade your GPS receiver to something sold in recent years.
    There are ways to reduce the start-up time to about 0 seconds,
    if your clock is somewhere around ±10 minutes of correct.
    Most areas are without cell phone coverage.
    And that "under trees" claim is spurious, personal experience
    tells me something quite different to your claims.

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 24, 2009
  6. For many years now GPS units have worked well inside cars with no
    external antenna. If the GPS is hand held in the front of the car the
    windscreen usually provides enough visibility unless it had one of the
    RF blocking heating systems within it.
    If your A-GPS uses RAW GPS readings from the cell phone GPS receiver
    which is sent off for processing and the calculated location returned
    to the phone then it has the same aerial requirements as a GPS. If the
    cell phone has a fully fledged location calculation GPS unit then it
    has the same aerial requirements as a GPS. If it hasn't a GPS
    receiver, or can't currently get GPS readings, and is substituting
    cell phone location derived from the cell(s) controlling your phone
    what accuracy do you have? It depends on cell density and how
    sophisticated it is. The least sophisticated uses the local cell
    location. The most sophisticated uses multiple cells if they're
    available combined with signal strength as a rather error-prone
    estimate of distance to do a very rough approximation to

    I find that with the systems here (UK) outside cities the error is
    measured in miles, and in cities it's in hundreds of yards. It's a lot
    better than nothing, but far from good enough for locating a
    photograph. What location error do you get? I don't mean the error the
    system optimistically hopes it has, I mean the real error it has in
    practice :)
    Chris Malcolm, Jun 24, 2009
  7. ray

    Chris H Guest

    I agree. Never had a problem with GPS
    That is the same for any GPS
    I agree.

    What he has said is:-
    GPS works except where there is no coverage.
    Mobile phones work except where there is no coverage.

    More of the world has GPS coverage than mobile phone coverage.
    BTW you have to have the right mobile phone... not all can handle all
    four of the main systems in use.

    You can loose signal GPS or Phone in some conditions. They loose signal
    for different reasons. IT often depends on the construction of the

    Most camera GPS systems will "freeze" the co-ordinates when they loose
    signal. For example go into a building. How accurate do you need the
    position for the picture?
    Chris H, Jun 24, 2009
  8. ray

    Chris H Guest

    They are very good and the only time they have lost lock was in a 1/2
    mile curved tunnel under a city. Re-lock as leaving tunnel. Otherwise
    pin point accuracy. (Car radio also goes in that tunnel)
    You must have an old system... it depends where you are and the weather
    conditions and the landscape
    Lots of places don't have phone cover. The UK is 98% but there are still
    dips and valleys that have problems. Once stayed on a holiday park there
    was no phone signal 4 miles from town . Mobile phone signals are line
    of site from a ground based transmitter.

    Great if you live in a flat area like remote deserts where two masts can
    cover a far greater distance than in urban areas.
    I agree... trees are not a problem
    Chris H, Jun 24, 2009
  9. ray

    J. Clarke Guest

    I'm curious--what are you using? My etrex Vista loses lock on a regular
    basis in Connecticut forests in the summer. Maybe it's time to upgrade
    J. Clarke, Jun 24, 2009
  10. [GPS in cars]
    If you have bad reception with them, something is wrong ---
    and it's not the car.
    .... and can be done in post-processing.
    News for you: There's at least one commercial offer doing
    exactly that. Fix time: 0.2 seconds.
    This should be a big enough hint for you to figure it out.
    You don't spend time anywhere except mostly densely settled
    parts, it seems.
    I understand that cell phone reception is spotty in the jungle.
    Where, granted, GPS reception is not that easy. Still, people
    are effectively using GPS in the tropical rain forrests, as a
    quick google will show you.

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 24, 2009
  11. [GPS]
    Sub-millimeter accuracy is needed for macros. :)

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 24, 2009
  12. Sorry, I need the phone in the meantime. And that includes the
    data saved on the microSD. Which is, by the way, nearly full.
    Sorry, I am out of cellphone range, the microSD is full after
    3 pictures, and I want to make more pictures. No, there's
    nothing to delete on the card, sorry, I need it all.

    Told you I'd need to buy extra storage.

    I also want to continue shooting while transmitting, which
    can take _very_ long, depending on location and upload speed.

    And then I am shooting RAW + JPEG, and I'll only transmit chosen
    JPEGs (because of the size, and because flickr, for example,
    doesn't do RAW). I'll still want all the RAWs.

    Told you I'd need to buy enough cards. At least 2 and a mobile
    hard drive.
    Sure, for _you_ it may work great. You just don't get that
    not everybody is you. Or uses equipment just like you do.
    Or has needs different from yours.
    Lost in the dirt in seconds, too.
    I see, no additional weight, no additional costs, no additional
    Good for you! I'd like to watch you changing microSD cards
    in high winds on a rocky rowing boat or while jogging through
    waist-high grass.

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 24, 2009
  13. ray

    Chris H Guest

    Garmin Nuvi 660fm
    How tall are the trees and how dense? If it is a very tall dense forest
    if could have some effect.
    Chris H, Jun 24, 2009
  14. Now why does that email address look bogus to me?
    'as-poor of a speller'?
    If you say so ... you must be right, "karl k". But I note
    you are unwilling to back your claim with your good name.
    I've never been canoeing in the Everglades where I got lost and
    needed maps from pole to pole. You must be really inattentive
    to come out of the swamps, go south past Cuba, through the
    Panama canal and never notice until you are halfway to Cape Horn.
    Yes, it's a grand idea to watch a movie (for example "Lord of
    the Rings") definitively meant for the big screen on a tiny LCD,
    running down your batteries in the middle of nowhere.
    You've got great skill in solving problems in the hardest
    possible way. Determined, if not necessarily smart.
    So anyone who is a good photographer can change microSD cards,
    that's what you say?
    Wonder what Anselm Adams would think, handling huge view
    cameras ...
    Good to know that ability cannot be learned nor trained.
    Let me put it that way: you'll go far as an orator for an extremist
    party, where easy, cheap and wrong solutions are preferred to
    understanding the problems or even looking closely.

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 24, 2009
  15. ray

    John A. Guest

    I'm sure the US defense department will be very interested in how you
    are achieving that with GPS. ;)
    John A., Jun 25, 2009
  16. ray

    John A. Guest

    Or have their assistants to do it. If they're *really* good
    photographers. ;)
    John A., Jun 25, 2009
  17. ray

    Guest Guest

    garmin gps units with the sirf star iii chipset work amazingly well
    indoors and under obstructions. i know someone who has a bluetooth gps
    logger and he leaves it in his glove compartment and it tracks just

    when i was shopping for a gps, i was able to get a 3d fix inside a
    department store at a shopping mall (steel frame construction) with no
    less than *six* satellites tracking, all with medium to high signal
    strength. the older non-sirf star iii chipset gps had absolutely no
    satellites. i easily get gps fixes indoors, and not on the top floor


    Both the Nuvi 350 and the Nuvi 360 come with the SiRF star III
    chipset, which is very sensitive and recently I was able to get a
    signal with the SiRF star III in my basement.
    Guest, Jun 25, 2009
  18. ray

    Guest Guest

    a clear view helps but is not required with decent gps units. older
    ones do require a clear view, however.
    Guest, Jun 25, 2009
  19. They can't use triangulation since the towers don't know angles. They
    could do trilateralisation by using signal strength as a rough
    approximation to distance. So if there's a building (or your head) in
    the way they get the distance wrong. And you can only do
    trilaterisation if your phone is being monitored by three towers,
    which is far from being always the case. It also only works if the
    system provider has set up the systems to do trilaterisation. In the
    UK for example, although this is regarded as a desirable system which
    system providers should provide, it's not legally mandatory, and most
    of them don't. Most of them don't even use the signal strength
    differences. They just report the position of the tower your phone is
    currently locked into. But that doesn't stop their salesmen from
    describing how wonderful their systems might be, and possibly even are
    in one or two places, and just happening to fail to mention that
    mostly that's not how they work.

    That's why I asked you what location errors you actually get from your
    phone, as opposed to those you might get if the advised best systems
    had been fully implemented and you were lucky enough to be in range
    of three towers.

    As I said, on my phone in the UK I get miles of error in the
    countryside, and hundreds of yards of error in the city.
    Chris Malcolm, Jun 25, 2009
  20. There is a big difference in the under trees performance of the latest
    receivers and the previous generation, and another big difference
    between those and the antepenultimate systems.

    The special problem of tree cover comes from keeping moving under the
    trees, and the fact that recovering a temporariliy lost satellite lock
    takes much less time than locking onto a new satellite. While under
    trees passing trunks and boughs keep losing lock very briefly. That
    doesn't matter, because it picks it up again in seconds as you
    move. But as you keep travelling under tree canopy some satellites
    drop below the rather high visible horzion, and new ones rise. But the
    time in between passing trunks and boughs is rarely enough to acquire
    lock on a fresh satellite. So after a while you end up with too few
    locked satellites and loss of position.

    The latest units ameliorate that problem a lot, but can't remove
    it. So this tree canopy problem is also highly dependent on usage. If
    you keep moving under canopy you will eventually lose lock on all
    visible satellites. But if you stop now and then to admire the view
    and take a photograph, you may well give the system time to acquire a
    new satellite. So fast walkers (or drivers) under tree canopy may get
    very bad performance, whereas dawdlers and view admirers under the
    same trees may get very good performance.

    Of course if you understand how your GPS system works you can get good
    location performance in heavily wooded places by stopping every now
    and then for a session in which you check out where the satellites you
    ought to be able to lock to are in the sky, and you move carefully
    around to make them visible one by one through gaps in the canopy, and
    acquire lock. Even if there's only one good window through the canopy,
    you can walk around under it to catch each satellite one by one. Once
    a satellite had been recognised and locked most modern GPS systems can
    put up with catching a glimpse of it every thirty seconds to keep
    going, more if you have more than the minimum set locked in.

    But most people use their GPS units in ignorant auto mode, just as
    most people use their cameras :)
    Chris Malcolm, Jun 25, 2009
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