Re: Boycott Panasonic cameras - forced proprietary battery use infirmware

Discussion in 'Panasonic Lumix' started by ray, Jun 21, 2009.

  1. There aren't many trees in the sea :)
    Not necessarily. You seem to be unaware of the way such long batterey
    life instant response GPS systems can work. They can for example run a
    cycle of turning on briefly to maintain lock, so that they can do an
    instant hot start when required, without having to be on all the time.
    It's also the case that the very latest GPS chip sets consume very
    much less power than their predecessors, and wouldn't add much extra
    drain to a camera if left fully active all the time the camera was on.

    There are plenty of technology options now available to solve these
    problems, and sufficient well-established demand for low power fast
    response GPS in other applications to fund their development outside
    of in-camera market demands.
    Chris Malcolm, Jun 26, 2009
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  2. Garmin's latest receivers can do a lot better than that while running
    a colour display at the same time. And there are ways of using those
    chip sets intermittently to get instant hot start without having to be
    on all the time, which reduces power consumption a lot more.
    Chris Malcolm, Jun 26, 2009
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  3. So you find the 15 secs warm start often cited for Garmin's latest
    receivers (when not using WAAS) to be an exaggeration?
    Chris Malcolm, Jun 26, 2009
  4. I have a camera with both fully auto and fully manual modes. It's
    designed to be used in either way. I have a GPS unit which can be left
    to acquire satellites on their own, or assisted manually where there
    are problems such as under dense tree cover.

    You can't learn how to operate a DSLR fully manually just from the
    instruction book, nor can you learn how to operate an advanced GPS
    unit fully manually from the instruction book. But both devices were
    designed to be able to be used in such ways by knowledgeable expert

    I think it is quite reasonable to call someone ignorant who has a
    professional quality device designed for expert as well as novice auto
    use but who knows nothing beyond the auto use. "Not knowing" is
    what "ignorant" literally means.
    Chris Malcolm, Jun 26, 2009
  5. ray

    Guest Guest

    for warm start perhaps but not for a hot start.
    Guest, Jun 26, 2009
  6. ray

    Guest Guest

    it's actually very workable.
    that doesn't mean anything. maybe it's not a high demand item (yet).
    you've said geotagging doesn't interest you and perhaps that's also the
    case for the typical user.
    Guest, Jun 26, 2009
  7. Nope, you don't need to let the unit running. The unit
    is not capable of aquiring and locking satellites, nor
    getting a location fix, on it's own.
    All that's done in postprocessing.

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 26, 2009
  8. Can you *prove* that? For all possible cases? It'll be very
    interesting to see your logic causing the real world to change
    radically. Starting with a GPS with ephermeris data preloaded
    via your cell phone.

    Ask nicely and I might even tell you how to log a position in
    0.2 seconds.
    Cell phone reception in the middle of the Atlantic is spotty.
    Unless you use a sat phone.
    Difficulty is a word for solved problems.
    You have claims but no arguments?
    I see you did answer ...

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 26, 2009
  9. That's nice. You use GPS in about the easiest environment there
    is and call that in depth experience --- but your knowledge what
    can be done with receivers and is done in even the consumer units
    of today, like hot start, like assisted GPS (which offers typically
    5 seconds TTFF), is nonexistent.
    As proven by your further posts.

    Your years of experience might just be the same week of experience
    over and over and over again; you should come off your high horse
    and really look anew into GPS technology instead. You might even
    learn something.

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 26, 2009
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 26, 2009
  11. So your GPS needs 30 seconds between subsequent fixes?

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 26, 2009
  12. Changing the topic from "$0.00 additional expense, & zero
    additional weight"[1] to "a few dollars, another microSD
    card" is sneaky, but doesn't cut ice.

    Switching to microSD for by-phone uploads is not $0.00.
    Which was the point, and you know it.
    Only almost, I notice. But yes, maybe I should switch to a sat
    phone. Or to some different upload system that works for me.
    Which is the other point: your usage patterns may not be mine.
    for $0.00 :)
    Add an CR-7200 and ... oops, that won't work in the mobile
    phone, I'm afraid. Not fully loaded.
    You can manufacture unrealistic circumstances for your claims,
    but that doesn't prove they are workable for anyone.
    The silent majority, I'm sure.
    True, compared to good glass and a usable body the cost of
    yet another score gigabytes flash memory is $0.00.


    [1] Message-ID: <>
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 26, 2009
  13. Take only what you need. Everything else is between very optional
    and hindering.
    Somewhere Chaucer would aprove, maybe?
    Ah, I do? That's news to me.
    The most important factor is the impact. Content is important,
    true, but nobody buys content. Nobody ever praises a photograph
    "It's got a lot of content". "Iconic" photographs, those images
    that define and keep over generations have emotional impact.
    The same is true for films. Nobody laughs over the *content*
    of a comedy, nobody cries over the *content* of a love film.

    And having seen all of LOTR on the big screen and on small screens,
    I am qualified to judge that the impact is much weaker on tiny
    I've read it a couple of times. On paper. In a book. (GASP)
    Shock your parents: read a book.

    [solar panels]
    Oh, so to actually *use* some your marvelous microSD cards,
    you carry an array of solar panels, starting from 9"x4"x1",
    weighing I don't know how much.
    I think you're saving weight at the wrong end.
    I probably comprehend the vast benefits better than you do.
    You're just jaded that I don't agree to your elevation of microSD
    to miracle status. To you everything looks like a nail 'cause
    you only have a hammer (microSD).

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 26, 2009
  14. Or maybe sRAW does fit one of the bills, after all.
    (How many pixels do you really need?)

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 26, 2009
  15. ray

    Guest Guest

    still wrong.
    Guest, Jun 26, 2009
  16. ray

    Peter Guest

    How much weight does it add?
    This may sound stupid, but does it mount any place other than the hot shoe?
    Peter, Jun 26, 2009
  17. ray

    Peter Guest

    That;s why guys like Thom make a living.
    Most don't RTFM
    Peter, Jun 26, 2009
  18. Well, to "operate" the device, yes, you can (and should be able to)
    learn it from the manual. That's what manuals are for. But being able to
    "operate" a devise doesn't mean you know how to use it. For that you
    need training.
    Just look at a car. The manual tells you which lever to move which way
    to turn on the left turn signal (and nowadays even where to find the
    steering wheel and which way to turn it to make a left turn).
    However it will not tell you _when_ to use that turn signal and it will
    not tell you either when to turn the steering wheel to the left and by
    how much. That is something that requires training and cannot be learned
    by reading.

    Same for photography: the manual does tell you how to set the apperture
    to F/4. It won't tell you when you may want to do that.

    Jürgen Exner, Jun 26, 2009
  19. ray

    Peter Guest

    After checking the price difference is about $50. But, more important is
    loss of use of the 10 pin connector as a remote release.
    Peter, Jun 27, 2009
  20. No I'm not. I'm pointing out that you have claimed that most of your
    experience is in the easiest and least demanding GPS navigation
    environment. The topic under discussion is GPS navigation under tree
    cover, which is probably the most demanding both of GPS performance
    and user skills. I've so far posted quite a bit of explanation about
    what causes the problems and some ways of getting round them. You've
    had very little to say on the topic beyond that it's an "issue".

    It would have been both welcome and impressive had you added some more
    helpful details about how to navigate under difficult tree
    cover. Instead you chose to suggest you probably have far more hours
    of GPS experience than I have -- in the simplest and easiest GPS
    environment there is!
    If you gave a bit more detail in your comments it would help to dispel
    the impression that you aren't.
    I suspect this is a difference of opinion between us about what
    constitutes an acceptable size of battery and an acceptable battery
    life. I'd be happy with today's best power drain. I guess that five
    years should be enough to develop to develop GPS receivers of low
    enough power drain to satisfy you.
    You can't flood a market until the products have been developed. I was
    talking about the technological possibilities of these products being
    developed. They are being developed. DSLRs with GPS options have been
    available for some time. Compacts with GPS built in are just
    arriving. The power requirements of GPS have been steadily dropping in
    much the same way as have computer power requirements. I've not seen
    mention of any technological barrier which will stop the continuing
    development of lower power units.
    Chris Malcolm, Jun 27, 2009
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