Recommend recording "nothing" on each new tape?

Discussion in 'Video Cameras' started by Paul, Oct 17, 2003.

  1. Paul

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    Exactly the same timecode as before I pulled it out. So?

    So how does any of this justify striping tapes and halving your head life?

    --

    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University

    http://www.staffs.ac.uk/academic/artdesign/mediacentre
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Oct 20, 2003
    #21
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  2. Paul

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    If this is the case then why does a tape recorded on my Sony TRV15 display
    frame accurate timecode when played back on my DVCPro AJ-D650? If it's not
    being created by the camera, then what?

    --

    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University

    http://www.staffs.ac.uk/academic/artdesign/mediacentre
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Oct 20, 2003
    #22
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  3. Paul

    Rupert Bear Guest

    It's a pity, but true, that in my experience, quite a lot of media
    students record nothing on the tape when they meant to record something,
    and in most other cases they record nothing worth using anyway...
     
    Rupert Bear, Oct 21, 2003
    #23
  4. Paul

    Tony Morgan Guest

    I'd suggest that you have a look at:
    http://www.informotion.co.uk/DV_Cinematography_02.htm

    Specifically (and I quote):

    <QUOTE>
    If your miniDV tape is forwarded beyond the last recorded frame (there
    are 30 frames in 1 second of video), the time code will reset to
    00:00:00:00 no matter what its previous setting was. Do not make this
    part of your workflow habit!

    How to avoid dropping time code

    With analog, filmmakers were relying on visual slating to identify
    scenes and takes. Digital technology requires that we learn some new
    skills to take advantage of the efficiencies of the technology. Here
    are different methods to avoid dropping timecode. Take your pick.
    The least recommended way to avoid dropping timecode is to stripe each
    blank tape with timecode before using them to record images. This means
    you put a new tape in the camera, keep the lens cap on and record black
    onto the entire tape to write timecode on it. When reusing the tape in
    the future, you will not drop any timecode since it has already been
    written once. The disadvantage of this method is that it is time
    consuming (each 63 minute tape?) and doubles the wear and tear on your
    recording heads.

    Another way to avoid dropping timecode is to purchase a camera with
    SMPTE timecode. At the moment, these are the JVC DV500U and Sony's
    PD100a. There are other cameras in the 4:1:1 gamut that also use SMPTE
    but these are the expensive cameras and don't all come with firewire
    built-in and are designed for electronic news gathering.
    When rewinding in-camera for playback, use the END EDIT SEARCH function
    on your TRV900 (this function is not available on all DV cameras) to
    automatically forward your tape in-camera to its last recorded frame.
    This is the most accurate way if you choose to rewind your tape
    in-camera after recording for playback before continuing to record.
    This only works if you have not removed the tape from the camera between
    recording and playback.
    If using a Sony camera, buy the more expensive Sony tapes with the IC
    chip, these will continue to retain timecode even if you remove the tape
    from the camera between recordings and playbacks. While this may be way
    more expensive than buying regular tapes, there could be an advantage.
    If you rewind the tape for playback between recordings, manually forward
    the tape to the last few seconds of the last shot. Start recording again
    before the last second of the previous take. The timecode will continue
    from its last written point chronologically.
    Use a shot log.
    </QUOTE>

    and... http://www.filmcentre.co.uk/digital.htm - again I quote:

    <QUOTE> ( ... context - MiniDV)
    Cons 3: different time code facilities between models/manufacturers. The
    tapes initial time code cannot be set by the user, each tape starts
    00:00:00:00 (00 hours: minutes: seconds: frames) the hour cannot be
    changed in camera. If you do a digital clone between miniDV's (eg via
    firewire) the timecode is not transfered, and will be different on the
    copy.
    </QUOTE>

    And the clincher can be found at:
    http://www.picturecanning.co.uk/downloads/Quickcamref.pdf

    And http://www.urbanfox.tv/workbooks/sonypd150/pd150tapes.htm observes
    that End Search doesn't work properly if you remove a tape then
    re-insert it. No explanation, but the implications are obvious.
     
    Tony Morgan, Oct 21, 2003
    #24
  5. Paul

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    "Tony Morgan" wrote:

    Which is exactly what I've been saying all along!

    And how does that contradict what I've been saying?
    I assume here that you're referring to the part that claims MiniDV does not
    have timecode? They are wrong. Refer to IEC 61834. This will also show
    you that your claim about black frames being used for index markers is also
    pure fantasy.

    http://www.iec.ch/cgi-bin/procgi.pl/www/iecwww.p?wwwlang=E&wwwprog=sea22.p&s
    earch=text&searchfor=61834
    Once again, contradicts nothing I've said.

    You seem to be arguing with yourself here Tony. With reference to the
    original post in this thread I restate my position that striping DV tapes is
    a waste of time and money. The only advantages argued so far in this thread
    are minor compared to the cost of halving your head life. But hey, if you
    all have got so much money to spend on the premature replacement of your
    camcorders then maybe you can afford to upgrade to pro level!

    --

    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University

    http://www.staffs.ac.uk/academic/artdesign/mediacentre
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Oct 21, 2003
    #25
  6. Paul

    Tony Morgan Guest

    You really are a condescending clueless prat aren't you.
    Back you go (again)...

    Plonk!
     
    Tony Morgan, Oct 21, 2003
    #26
  7. Paul

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    You really can't stand being proven wrong can you. And you call me
    condescending. Pot. Black.

    --

    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University

    http://www.staffs.ac.uk/academic/artdesign/mediacentre
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Oct 21, 2003
    #27
  8. Paul

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    But hey, thanks for spending so much time searching the internet just so
    that I could have a bit of sport. It was fun!
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Oct 21, 2003
    #28
  9. Paul

    Rupert Bear Guest

    And in the red corner........
     
    Rupert Bear, Oct 21, 2003
    #29
  10. AFAICS simple maths does not support that contention.

    The normal cycle is shoot tape, playback tape - add blanking which, at worst,
    would adds an extra 33.33% of wear.

    This assumes that you never playback at the end of the take, never overrun onto
    unrecorded tape and never need to rollback in order to sync the last scene's
    timecode. My suspicion is that this probably causes more wear than blanking.

    Equally, if you are working professionally, there are some cost advantages in
    having of tapes with absolutely contiguous time code.

    However, having said that, my personal view is that blanking on the camcorder
    is only worth it under fairly limited certain circumstances.

    What really is worrying is the certainty of the original statement which so
    clearly backs up my prejudices about the suitability of media graduates to work
    professionally.

    regards

    Stuart McKears

    www.mckears.com
     
    Stuart McKears, Oct 21, 2003
    #30
  11. Paul

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    Either way it is still a significant amount of extra wear (and cost and
    time) for a practice that is not necessary.
    Would you have preferred my original statement to have been uncertain? I
    said it was totally unnecessary which it is. To say that a thing is
    unnecessary is to say that it has an absence of necessity. In this context
    the addition of the adverb totally cannot alter the degree of necessity but
    serve only to emphasise the point. Therefore the two statements are
    identical in meaning.

    And I'll say it again. It is unnecessary to stripe camcorder tapes. It is
    unnecessary because they will work whether you do or not. The problems with
    timecode breaks and camcorder functions can be overcome by other means less
    expensive and time consuming.

    As for your statement about the suitability of media graduates, I challenge
    you, genuinely, to come and spend a day here and look at the work they are
    doing. Then you can tell me if they are suited to professional work.

    --

    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University

    http://www.staffs.ac.uk/academic/artdesign/mediacentre
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Oct 21, 2003
    #31
  12. Paul

    Jerry. Guest

    Here we go again, prove Tony wrong and you get called names and (supposedly)
    placed in his kill file.

    The only 'condescending clueless prat' around this group is Mr Morgan
    himself !
     
    Jerry., Oct 21, 2003
    #32
  13. Paul

    Darcy O'Bree Guest


    Aah! Is that what he means by Plonk? I thought it was part of his name.

    --

    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University

    http://www.staffs.ac.uk/academic/artdesign/mediacentre
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Oct 21, 2003
    #33
  14. Paul

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    What a complete and utter load of shite! Are you scared some of these
    graduates might take you job? And I suppose you were perfect when you
    started out. Perhaps you olduns have forgotten how incompetent you were in
    your youth.
    Show me a course anywhere in any subject that sees all it's graduates going
    on to pursue a professional career in that discipline. How many medical
    graduates end up working in McDonalds? Does that mean we should close down
    all the med schools?

    --

    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University

    http://www.staffs.ac.uk/academic/artdesign/mediacentre
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Oct 21, 2003
    #34
  15. Paul

    Jerry. Guest

    blanking.

    Yes, but that is _necessary_ use, surely Darcy's point is that the wear
    incurred due to blanking / striping is un necessary.
    If one is working professionally I would expect you to use the camera
    correctly and be using a new tape, it doesn't take much common to find the
    correct position on a tape even after a power down or tape removal (just why
    the tape would be removed in beyond me though...) IYSWIM ?
    And even then, in a domestic editing situation it's not vital you use TC, if
    TC is lacking in a pro edit suite (with pro decks) than surely a direct DV >
    DV dub would create a continuous TC with no loss of quality ? Time
    limitation would be the main problem I suspect....
     
    Jerry., Oct 21, 2003
    #35
  16. Paul

    Tony Morgan Guest

    Scary isn't it. Poor sods spend three years doing little else but
    frequent the Student's Union bar working up a huge debts, to find it
    will take forever in a low-paid and insignificant job to repay it when
    they graduate.

    Still, it keeps all the lecturers in employment and away from the wrong
    side of Sainsbury's check-outs :)

    Media isn't the only thing though. Uni's and colleges seem quite adept
    at getting funding for courses guaranteed to keep their graduates either
    unemployed or in low-paid menial jobs.
     
    Tony Morgan, Oct 21, 2003
    #36
  17. Paul

    Jerry. Guest

    LOL It might be that as well I suppose !... :~)
     
    Jerry., Oct 21, 2003
    #37
  18. Paul

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    A bit of learning wouldn't do you any harm mate!

    --

    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University

    http://www.staffs.ac.uk/academic/artdesign/mediacentre
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Oct 21, 2003
    #38
  19. Paul

    Rupert Bear Guest

    However, in the real world, where it really matters... It's a pity, but
    true, that in my experience, quite a lot of media students record
    nothing on the tape when they meant to record something, and in most
    other cases they record nothing worth using anyway... The only useful
    purpose that media students, in general, have is in downgrading the
    professional standards we olduns have spent years achieving, and in
    doing so reduce the on screen quality and standars we have set in the
    past.. There are more students doing media courses than there are people
    working professionally in the industry, and the gem quoted to one course
    when they had graduated was to go and get a job in the local
    supermarket, cos there wasn't anything going in the media !!!!
     
    Rupert Bear, Oct 21, 2003
    #39
  20. Paul

    Darcy O'Bree Guest

    What I am finding particularly disturbing about the anti-graduate prejudice
    expressed in this thread is what it says about the type of person who
    promotes themselves as a torch bearer for high standards of professional
    practice.

    Not only do they seem to believe that today's interns will never achieve
    their level of greatness but they also seem to feel they have nothing left
    to learn themselves. The more recent counter arguments presented in this
    thread by posters such as Stuart, Rupert and Tony have almost completely
    ignored the facts, instead assuming that as nothing good can come from
    higher education, then I must be wrong.

    It is precisely this attitude that the media industry needs to be rid of.
    And I say this with twenty years of professional industry experience myself.
    I have worked with too many of your kind, old farts too stuck in their ways
    to realise the potential of a new idea. Be gone the lot of you, you're
    totally unnecessary!

    --

    Darcy O¹Bree
    Digital Media Studios Manager
    Faculty of Arts, Media and Design
    Staffordshire University

    http://www.staffs.ac.uk/academic/artdesign/mediacentre
     
    Darcy O'Bree, Oct 21, 2003
    #40
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