Remove battery when camera not in use?

Discussion in 'Photography' started by Higgs Boson, Jun 16, 2013.

  1. Higgs Boson

    rickman Guest

    On 6/27/2013 2:47 PM, BobA wrote:
    > In article<kqhv5h$jif$>,
    > Paul in Houston TX<> wrote:
    >> [ ... ]
    >> Micro electronics have not used wet electrolytics
    >> for about 5 years. The industry has migrated to ceramic
    >> for anything under about 220 mfd. Anything over that
    >> typically will use electrolyte washed tantalum caps.
    >> And those are mainly in power supplies.
    >> In either case, there is no chance of leakage and
    >> virtually no chance of part failure.

    >
    > Just as an FYI, I have a fairly new Metz 58 AF-2 flash which
    > has the following text near the end of the user manual (pg 145):
    >
    > [ ... ]
    > 22.3 Flash capacitor forming
    > The flash capacitor built into the flash unit undergoes
    > physical change if the unit is not switched on for a
    > prolonged period. For this reason it is necessary to
    > switch the unit on for approximately 10 minutes at least
    > once every three months. [ ... ]
    >
    > what do you make of that?


    This is not the same as saying the caps can't be totally discharged and
    these are not "micro-capacitors". These are bulk caps and are likely
    the wet electrolytic type. But Paul said "under about 220 mFd". I bet
    the flash caps are pretty durn large!

    I won't agree with Paul that electrolytics aren't used anymore even
    below the size he indicated. It purely depends on the longevity of the
    product being made and the profit margin. If they are trying to squeeze
    every last penny out of the product cost and they don't need it to last
    more than some 5 to 10 years, electrolytics are fine... also depending
    on the temperature of the environment. Electrolytics are much more
    sensitive to high temps than the other types.

    --

    Rick
     
    rickman, Jun 27, 2013
    #21
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  2. "rickman" <> wrote in message
    news:kqi6qg$3b8$...

    > Because the mistake was so basic that I couldn't tell if it was a mistake
    > in the principle or the terminology. "Someone's blog" is not a great place
    > to get info like this. Sorry I offended you.


    I thought I had made the distinction between talking about capacitors and
    batteries at the start.

    Not everything is documented or advertised so sometimes you have to learn
    from anecdotal evidence. (The two are equally valid forms of knowledge.)

    Perhaps I should have been more clear earlier but I did mention Kirk Tuck by
    name. I actually did look but he's prolific and been on a deletion spree
    recently. If someone wants to follow up they could always ask him.

    I'm sorry if I came over as sharp. It's just too many people act like Old
    White Men point scoring instead of being genuinely curious (and being
    downright lazy and ungrateful at times).

    --
    Charles E. Hardwidge
     
    Charles E. Hardwidge, Jun 27, 2013
    #22
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  3. BobA wrote:
    > In article <kqhv5h$jif$>,
    > Paul in Houston TX <> wrote:
    >> [ ... ]
    >> Micro electronics have not used wet electrolytics
    >> for about 5 years. The industry has migrated to ceramic
    >> for anything under about 220 mfd. Anything over that
    >> typically will use electrolyte washed tantalum caps.
    >> And those are mainly in power supplies.
    >> In either case, there is no chance of leakage and
    >> virtually no chance of part failure.

    >
    > Just as an FYI, I have a fairly new Metz 58 AF-2 flash which
    > has the following text near the end of the user manual (pg 145):
    >
    > [ ... ]
    > 22.3 Flash capacitor forming
    > The flash capacitor built into the flash unit undergoes
    > physical change if the unit is not switched on for a
    > prolonged period. For this reason it is necessary to
    > switch the unit on for approximately 10 minutes at least
    > once every three months. [ ... ]
    >
    > what do you make of that?
    >
    > BobA


    I completely forgot about flash capacitors.
    High voltage, high mfd.
    Aluminmum foil with an alkaline electrolyte.
    The oxide layer reduces when sitting uncharged.
    It sounds like Metz wants to stop the reduction process
    before it starts.

    I agree with Rickman about quality of product.
    Cheap stuff does use wet caps.
    My cheap landline remote is chock full of wet caps.
    It will eventually rot out.
    All of my expensive things are solid state.
    (I have taken all of them apart at least once.)
     
    Paul in Houston TX, Jun 28, 2013
    #23
  4. Higgs Boson

    rickman Guest

    On 6/27/2013 5:35 PM, Charles E. Hardwidge wrote:
    > "rickman" <> wrote in message
    > news:kqi6qg$3b8$...
    >
    >> Because the mistake was so basic that I couldn't tell if it was a mistake
    >> in the principle or the terminology. "Someone's blog" is not a great
    >> place
    >> to get info like this. Sorry I offended you.

    >
    > I thought I had made the distinction between talking about capacitors and
    > batteries at the start.
    >
    > Not everything is documented or advertised so sometimes you have to learn
    > from anecdotal evidence. (The two are equally valid forms of knowledge.)
    >
    > Perhaps I should have been more clear earlier but I did mention Kirk
    > Tuck by
    > name. I actually did look but he's prolific and been on a deletion spree
    > recently. If someone wants to follow up they could always ask him.
    >
    > I'm sorry if I came over as sharp. It's just too many people act like Old
    > White Men point scoring instead of being genuinely curious (and being
    > downright lazy and ungrateful at times).


    No offense intended and none taken. Like I said, I'm used to other
    groups where people are just plain a**holes and jump on each other at
    any chance. I was trying not to say anything until I understood...
    especially since I am not a regular here. I'm more of a lurker when it
    comes to photography groups. You might say a wanabee.

    I might get into photography seriously some day, but it is a very broad
    and deep subject with a lot of dimensions and can take up a lot of time.
    For now I am into kayaking and would like to find a good water-proof
    camera and not having much luck. I guess I haven't figured out how to
    define "good" yet. :^]

    --

    Rick
     
    rickman, Jun 28, 2013
    #24
  5. BobA <> wrote:
    >In article <kqhv5h$jif$>,
    >Paul in Houston TX <> wrote:
    >> [ ... ]
    >>Micro electronics have not used wet electrolytics
    >>for about 5 years. The industry has migrated to ceramic
    >>for anything under about 220 mfd. Anything over that
    >>typically will use electrolyte washed tantalum caps.
    >>And those are mainly in power supplies.
    >>In either case, there is no chance of leakage and
    >>virtually no chance of part failure.

    >
    >Just as an FYI, I have a fairly new Metz 58 AF-2 flash which
    >has the following text near the end of the user manual (pg 145):
    >
    > [ ... ]
    > 22.3 Flash capacitor forming
    > The flash capacitor built into the flash unit undergoes
    > physical change if the unit is not switched on for a
    > prolonged period. For this reason it is necessary to
    > switch the unit on for approximately 10 minutes at least
    > once every three months. [ ... ]
    >
    >what do you make of that?
    >
    >BobA


    One thing *not* to make of it is the idea that fully
    discharging a capactior will damage it! It absolutely
    does not say that.

    What it does say is that the dielectric for wet
    electrolytics changes with prolonged discharge. Any
    single or short period of discharge does nothing at all.
    But even the change over a long period (for example the
    three months listed as how often it should be cycled to
    reform the dielectric) does not actually damage the
    capacitor.

    What does damage the capacitor, and is the reason that
    periodic operation is recommended, is allowing the
    dielectric to deform sufficiently that it cannot
    withstand the full voltage applied by the built in
    circuit, and then trying to charge the capacitor with
    that voltage (which may cause actual damage to occur).

    If the capacitor is instead removed from the circuit and
    recharged with a system designed to avoid damage (i.e.,
    starting with a lower voltage and building up to the
    rate voltage over many hours), there is no problem.

    Flash units, as an example, have been commonly known to
    go for several years without use (totally discharged)
    and still reform the dielectric perfectly when use is
    attempted. If the application of working voltage does
    not damage the capacitor, all that is needed are several
    cycles of charge and discharge to reform the dielectric.

    The same is commonly true of old radios that
    have sat for years but still work when plugged in.

    However, it is also true that while the sitting
    discharged did not damage the capacitors, it is also not
    rare that turning on such a device an applying full
    working voltage to the deformed dielectric does cause
    damage, and restoring the device to working status
    requires replacement of most of the capacitors.

    But it's necessary to distinguish what causes the damage
    and when it occurs.

    --
    Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
    Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Jun 28, 2013
    #25
  6. "rickman" <> wrote in message
    news:kqihe5$ri2$...
    > On 6/27/2013 5:35 PM, Charles E. Hardwidge wrote:


    >> I'm sorry if I came over as sharp. It's just too many people act like Old
    >> White Men point scoring instead of being genuinely curious (and being
    >> downright lazy and ungrateful at times).

    >
    > No offense intended and none taken. Like I said, I'm used to other groups
    > where people are just plain a**holes and jump on each other at any chance.
    > I was trying not to say anything until I understood... especially since I
    > am not a regular here. I'm more of a lurker when it comes to photography
    > groups. You might say a wanabee.
    >
    > I might get into photography seriously some day, but it is a very broad
    > and deep subject with a lot of dimensions and can take up a lot of time.
    > For now I am into kayaking and would like to find a good water-proof
    > camera and not having much luck. I guess I haven't figured out how to
    > define "good" yet. :^]


    Oh, yeah. I know what you mean. I'm the other way... I test people to see
    how they react so our schemes were working in opposition. Thanks. It's
    really nice to share space with someone who isn't being an asshole.

    I had just that thing the other day. Someone was trying to get me to define
    goals. I did. They just weren't the goals they were able to fit into their
    system...

    Design is an outcome based exploratory process. I've found people with the
    civil service mentality tend to have their tick boxes and processes with
    an arbitrary outcome right at the end. It can be very annoying at times!

    --
    Charles E. Hardwidge
     
    Charles E. Hardwidge, Jun 28, 2013
    #26
  7. Higgs Boson

    PeterN Guest

    On 6/27/2013 7:26 PM, rickman wrote:

    <snip>
    >
    > I might get into photography seriously some day, but it is a very broad
    > and deep subject with a lot of dimensions and can take up a lot of time.
    > For now I am into kayaking and would like to find a good water-proof
    > camera and not having much luck. I guess I haven't figured out how to
    > define "good" yet. :^]
    >


    A suitable underwater camera depends on whether you are looking to take
    photos while kayaking, or kayaking to take photos. And of course, your
    budget.
    If you want the former, get an inexpensive waterproof, shock resistant
    camera. <http://waterproof-camera-review.toptenreviews.com/>
    If the second is your goal, get a camera with a waterproof Ikelite
    housing. I used one for diving, for years.

    either way I hope I gave you something to think about.

    --
    PeterN
     
    PeterN, Jun 28, 2013
    #27
  8. Higgs Boson

    rickman Guest

    On 6/28/2013 9:21 AM, PeterN wrote:
    > On 6/27/2013 7:26 PM, rickman wrote:
    >
    > <snip>
    >>
    >> I might get into photography seriously some day, but it is a very broad
    >> and deep subject with a lot of dimensions and can take up a lot of time.
    >> For now I am into kayaking and would like to find a good water-proof
    >> camera and not having much luck. I guess I haven't figured out how to
    >> define "good" yet. :^]
    >>

    >
    > A suitable underwater camera depends on whether you are looking to take
    > photos while kayaking, or kayaking to take photos. And of course, your
    > budget.
    > If you want the former, get an inexpensive waterproof, shock resistant
    > camera. <http://waterproof-camera-review.toptenreviews.com/>
    > If the second is your goal, get a camera with a waterproof Ikelite
    > housing. I used one for diving, for years.
    >
    > either way I hope I gave you something to think about.


    Sure thanks. I know about the housings, but have never considered them
    seriously. I have been looking at the inexpensive waterproofs but not
    pulled the trigger yet. Everyone I know who uses good cameras just puts
    them in a dry bag when not in use. While they are using them they are
    unprotected! Once a guy who uses a wing paddle (one with a bit more
    blade area) got hit by a wind. He had to choose between holding onto
    his camera or grabbing his paddle. The silly man ignored the fact that
    his friends were around to help him and grabbed the paddle. I think the
    housing came out ok, but he needed a new telephoto lens. So he is back
    to using the basic lens.

    I know an amateur photographer who takes some really great shots! One
    of the kayakers I know is a world class instructor. He wears all black
    and a black kayak. The photographer got out of his boat at a low bridge
    and took a series of shots of the instructor laying back and laying in
    the water from directly overhead. The lighting was great and the shots
    turned out great. I'm trying to get him to blow up a picture of a bird
    he took that is fabulous. I want to give one copy to my girl friend and
    keep one for myself. I really do love good photographs.

    Barbara from the a.b.p.o group was kind enough to share a high-res copy
    of her maidenhair fern shot. I love it.

    --

    Rick
     
    rickman, Jun 28, 2013
    #28
  9. rickman <> wrote:
    > On 6/27/2013 9:13 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:


    >> Virtually all capacitors are manufactured and shipped
    >> fully discharged. Matter of fact many of them come with
    >> the leads shorted to purposely be sure that they are
    >> fully discharged.


    > That is where I was going with this. I think someone was confusing
    > capacitors with batteries. Batteries can be sensitive little critters
    > which don't like to be over charged or drained too far.


    Depends. NiCd's are apparently kept fully discharged and
    shortened by NASA as long term storage and then overcharged on
    purpose in a reconditioning cycle. (OK, photographers don't
    use NiCds much any more these days.)

    > Some don't like
    > topping off


    Especially if the charger doesn't detect when a battery is
    fully charged.

    > Capacitors are not at all like batteries. They don't care a hoot about
    > their state of charge other than being charged above their rated voltage
    > which can do damage.


    Try reversing the polarity on an electrolyte capacitor :)

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 30, 2013
    #29
  10. Higgs Boson

    Higgs Boson Guest

    On Sunday, June 16, 2013 12:51:45 AM UTC-7, Higgs Boson wrote:
    > I've heard that it's good to remove or disable the battery when camera will not be used for a [long] while.
    >
    > >

    > Does this apply to my little Canon point&shoot?
    >
    > >

    > What do they mean by a "long" while?
    > >

    >
    > TIA
    >
    >Thanks to all for chiming inon this question. Comments quickly morphed into a discussion of micro-capacitors vs batteries and other esoteric far beyond my tiny capacity <g> to absorb. Also perhaps not immediately germane to my concern.


    Thanks, Robert, for informing me of "little battery that maintains the dateand time". Didn't know about it.

    Guess I'd better order an alternate battery to rotate in/out as you suggest.. I had been removing the battery when indicator said it was low, recharging and reinstalling.

    QUESTION: If I keep doing this, will the battery eventually get "tired"? What consequences could follow?

    I am currently using a battery that I ordered a year or so after buying thecamera, when a window suggested it was time to replace. Note that this second battery never performed as well as the original that came with the camera. Seemed to require recharging more often.

    Could that mean that batteries purchased from other than Canon ($$$) are inferior?

    TIA to all for your wisdom.

    HB
     
    Higgs Boson, Jul 2, 2013
    #30
  11. Higgs Boson

    PeterN Guest

    On 7/2/2013 2:05 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:



    <snip>

    >>
    >> Thanks to all for chiming inon this question. Comments quickly morphed into a discussion of micro-capacitors vs batteries and other esoteric far beyond my tiny capacity <g> to absorb. Also perhaps not immediately germane to my concern.

    >
    > Thanks, Robert, for informing me of "little battery that maintains the date and time". Didn't know about it.
    >
    > Guess I'd better order an alternate battery to rotate in/out as you suggest. I had been removing the battery when indicator said it was low, recharging and reinstalling.
    >
    > QUESTION: If I keep doing this, will the battery eventually get "tired"? What consequences could follow?
    >
    > I am currently using a battery that I ordered a year or so after buying the camera, when a window suggested it was time to replace. Note that this second battery never performed as well as the original that came with the camera. Seemed to require recharging more often.
    >
    > Could that mean that batteries purchased from other than Canon ($$$) are inferior?
    >
    > TIA to all for your wisdom.
    >
    > HB
    >


    Not all batteries are equal. There is a good chance that could be the
    cause. For my cameras, I use only Nikon batteries, and I follow a policy
    of rotating them. Some folks have had goood experiences with 3rd party
    batteries, I simply don't want to take the risk of an inferior battery.
    For my strobe, I get my AA batteries, 2,700 from a reliable local
    industrial supplier.



    --
    PeterN
     
    PeterN, Jul 3, 2013
    #31
  12. Higgs Boson

    Higgs Boson Guest

    On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 4:50:37 AM UTC-7, PeterN wrote:
    > On 7/2/2013 2:05 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    >
    >
    > >>

    >
    > >> Thanks to all for chiming inon this question. Comments quickly morphed into a discussion of micro-capacitors vs batteries and other esoteric far beyond my tiny capacity <g> to absorb. Also perhaps not immediately germane to my concern.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Thanks, Robert, for informing me of "little battery that maintains the date and time". Didn't know about it.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Guess I'd better order an alternate battery to rotate in/out as you suggest. I had been removing the battery when indicator said it was low, recharging and reinstalling.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > QUESTION: If I keep doing this, will the battery eventually get "tired"? What consequences could follow?

    >
    > >

    >
    > > I am currently using a battery that I ordered a year or so after buyingthe camera, when a window suggested it was time to replace. Note that this second battery never performed as well as the original that came with thecamera. Seemed to require recharging more often.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Could that mean that batteries purchased from other than Canon ($$$) are inferior?

    >
    > >

    >
    > > TIA to all for your wisdom.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > HB

    >
    > >

    >
    >
    >
    > Not all batteries are equal. There is a good chance that could be the
    >
    > cause. For my cameras, I use only Nikon batteries, and I follow a policy
    >
    > of rotating them. Some folks have had goood experiences with 3rd party
    >
    > batteries, I simply don't want to take the risk of an inferior battery.
    >
    > For my strobe, I get my AA batteries, 2,700 from a reliable local
    >
    > industrial supplier.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > PeterN


    Hi, folks - thanks for your advice on Subject -- best to leave battery in so as not to lose settings, but change out battery every few months.

    This is a point&shoot Canon SD1200IS.

    I just got around to shopping for battery.

    1. Prices on this replacement are very low -- under $10.00. Because older camera? Or?

    2. Also, some sites do not even offer battery for SD1200IS -- only for 1300..

    3. Other sites respond to input by offering 6L.

    OK this is not the decision of a lifetime <g> but I don't want to harm the camera. Price is not the issue. Would value your advice.

    TIA

    HB

    HB
     
    Higgs Boson, Nov 4, 2013
    #32
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