Rockwell Nikon D200, 300 vs Cannon 5D

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by Alan Calan, Dec 1, 2007.

  1. Alan Calan

    Frank Arthur Guest

    C'mon Bob. This guy uses an SB 28 on an F5 with Duracell Rechargeable
    Batteries that he says
    takes 10 hours to recharge each set for the camera and another 10
    hours for the flash unit. And his important images failed because he
    didn't know whether the flash west off or not? Something is not right
    about that whole story.
     
    Frank Arthur, Dec 2, 2007
    #21
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  2. Alan Calan

    frederick Guest

    I disagree. I don't think that composition-wise, his photos have any
    particular merit - but that's subjective. One thing is for sure -
    having posted images for a while on a public site where a lot of
    feedback is received, the "over-saturated" look _is_ surely what people
    like to see on screen, and I suspect also like to see in small prints.
    A large print might look gaudy - but I'm not even so sure about that -
    on reflection back only a few years ago, that's what Cibachrome looked
    like. FWIW, it seems that the D300 retains detail on heavily saturated
    reds / yellows that would have been a blown mess with my D70, or D80
    that I've used.
    The D300 "tonality" seems excellent - _much_ nicer ex-camera jpegs than
    from any previous Nikon dlsr I've seen. The active D-lighting feature
    seems to work brilliantly for highlight retention in high contrast
    shots. I usually shoot raw so can pp to get the same. I presume that
    the active D-light setting is preserved in the raw file, so if using
    CaptureNX, then much of the pp that I routinely do is already done
    in-camera.

    Yes, Ken can be a bit of a clown, but idiot he's not. He should be in
    awe of the D300. It surely appears to be by far the best APS-c camera
    Nikon's ever made, the equal of the Canon 40d in image quality, but with
    a much better feature set. That's especially so for people shooting
    jpeg - which he - and most people do.
     
    frederick, Dec 2, 2007
    #22
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  3. Alan Calan

    Alan Calan Guest

    I have no problem being called incompetent but I know that's not what
    you meant. I probably should have realized that for the D200 the
    "hairs" on the bear should have been in focus and the lines on the
    house and tree should have been better focus too.

    What I don't know is if the Canon focuses better than the Nikon. I
    experienced slow auto focusing in dark situations with the F5 all of
    Rockwell's tests involved well lit subjects. I also assumed that all
    the cameras were on tripods where IS and VR shouldn't be needed but
    maybe I'm wrong.

    I don't understand is why the Nikon pixtures are out of focus, I mean
    they are literally not shaply focused at
    http://kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm

    The lenses used in the "You can us a cheap lens" test were not IS or
    VR lenses. One was a Canon 70-210mm f/4 for the 5D and the Nikkor
    85mm f/2 AI-s for the D200

    So, I just don't understand why all the Nikon photos look out of focus
    or does it just look that way because these are tiny portions of
    cropped pictures.
     
    Alan Calan, Dec 3, 2007
    #23
  4. Has it occured to you yet that there might be some very
    good reasons that so many people suggest that Ken
    Rockwell be ignored?

    Perhaps virtually *nothing* on his website is reliable,
    even if occasionally some parts of it do happen to be
    correct.
    Rockwell does not make money by producing satisfied
    readers. He gains more by producing *controversy*,
    which causes more hits. Think about it... ;-)
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Dec 3, 2007
    #24
  5. It's not a question of being smart or stupid. Nikon lags Canon in sensor
    development, and Canon certainly isn't going to sell sensors to Nikon.
    Canon has better auto-focus, but I doubt if that's the reason for any
    difference you perceive.

    You really want to compare the Nikon D3 the Canon 5D in terms of picture
    quality, though the D3 is a better built body.

    It's rather amusing that even the D3 didn't quite make it to "full
    frame." Because of the limitations of Nikon's F mount, and the need for
    the pixels of a sensor to have light strike them perpendicularly, they
    could not quite get to 36mm x 24mm.

    Some have criticized that if you use DX lenses with the D3 you are
    reduced to 5 megapixels. But with Canon, you can't use the EF-s lenses
    at all on the 5D (or any other full-frame Canon model), even at reduced
    resolution.

    In any case, I would not base a decision on anything Rockwell has said,
    or that he shows on his site. If you really want full-frame, get the 5D.
    Otherwise you'll be happy with the D300.
     
    SMS 斯蒂文• å¤, Dec 3, 2007
    #25
  6. Alan Calan

    Guest Guest

    nikon no longer lags canon.
    they're comparable, and the d300 has over five times as many focus
    points as the 40d and 5d (51 versus 9).
    the d3 competes with the 1d mark iii, not the 5d.
    it most certainly IS full frame.
    what a hilarious crock of shit that is. do you just make this stuff up?

    canon 5d sensor size: 35.8 x 23.9mm

    <http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/dslr/data/1995-/2005_eos5d.ht
    ml?lang=us&categ=crn&page=1995-&p=2>

    nikon d3 sensor size: 36.0 x 23.9

    <http://nikonimaging.com/global/products/digitalcamera/slr/d3/index.htm>

    the nikon sensor is BIGGER.
    that's what happens when you crop a 12 mp full frame sensor to dx
    format. who buys a $5000 d3 to use dx lenses anyway? that kind of
    defeats the purpose. not only that, some dx lenses actually *do* cover
    the full frame at some focal lengths and the dx crop mode can be
    overriden.
    right, nikon's lens mount is fully compatible with virtually all nikon
    mount lenses made in the last 30+ years. lenses made before that
    require a minor modification, except for the d40/d40x where no
    modification is needed.
    i wouldn't base a decision on anything *you* say since it is invariably
    wrong.
     
    Guest, Dec 3, 2007
    #26
  7. It appears that the sensor in the D3 is a significant
    step ahead of anything Canon is current shipping. Here
    are some "preliminary" figures:

    http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/posts/tests/D300_40D_tests/

    Quantum efficency divided by pixel area, indicating light collecting
    ability:

    D200 5D 1Ds2 D300 1D3 D3
    .054 .061 .064 .089 .098 .108

    Another way to look at light collecting ability, QE times the
    megapixel count:

    D200 D300 1D3 5D 1Ds2 D3
    20.0 33.s 51.5 52.1 54.8 93.2
    Some of the amusing things that get posted to Usenet are
    beyond belief.

    Camera Sensor Size
    -------- -----------
    Canon 5D 35.8 x 23.9
    Nikon D3 36.0 x 23.9

    So whatever one might say about the Nikon D3, it has a
    *larger* sensor that the Canon 5D you say it should be
    compared to.

    What inherent design flaw do you attribute the sensor
    size on the Canon 5D to?
    Wrong numbers, by a wide mile.
    Actually, the DX mode is not 5MP, it is 7.9MP. And in
    fact one can manually select a 5:4 aspect ration using
    30x24mm of sensor for a 10.1MP image (that might well
    vignette at the edges).
    I guess a clock with no battery is right twice a day,
    and so are you.
    If you really want the least expensive full frame, look
    at the 5D. If you want the best one there are other
    options.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Dec 3, 2007
    #27
  8. Alan Calan

    Guest Guest

    he's correct in this case (surprisingly).
    no, the d3's crop mode is 5mp.

    <http://nikonimaging.com/global/products/digitalcamera/slr/d3/index.htm>

    DX format (24 x 16): 2,784 x 1,848 [L], 2,080 x 1,384 [M], 1,392 x 920


    multiplying, 2784 * 1848 = 5144832, or 5.1 mp

    and the 5:4 mode is 3552 x 2832, or 10 mp
    he rarely does that well.
     
    Guest, Dec 3, 2007
    #28


  9. Yep. I used 2832 rather than 1848 and of course got a
    larger than real number.

    Of course it can also be set for 10MP too... so he's
    still not really telling the truth.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Dec 3, 2007
    #29
  10. Alan Calan

    Frank Arthur Guest

    If you believe that a Nikon D200 produces out of focus images then you
    are just stupid or gullible.
     
    Frank Arthur, Dec 3, 2007
    #30
  11. So basically some lenses and an old flash are all that tie you
    to Nikon. In other words, you are free to choose Canon, Nikon,
    Pentax, Sony, etc.

    Any and all dSLR will create very good images. The differences
    between them in image quality (maybe excluding Sigma's Foveon
    sensor cameras) is mostly in the very high ISO settings (ISO 800,
    1600, 3200 ...) and even the worst ones are much better than high
    sensitivity film.

    So basically the question boils down to:
    - what feels good in your hands (I, for example, need a battery
    grip for my big hands for comfortable shooting)
    - Which setup of buttons and menues are best for you?
    - Do you want a second control wheel (I wouldn't dream of buying
    a camera without one, now that I have experienced one with
    that feature)?
    - do you want/need an LCD like every analog camera used to have,
    or is it OK to use the main monitor to see/change settings?
    (Since I often shoot in very dark circumstances, the LCD with
    it's gentle orange backlight is much more appealing and eats
    less battery power, too)

    Decide along these and similar lines.

    Then go out and buy the *very* *best* *lenses* you can possibly
    afford. Rob a bank, aeh, I mean, wait longer and buy only a
    fast (and a steal for the price) 50mm fixed focal length lens,
    if that's all you can afford.

    As you can see by looking at the reviews at http://photozone.de,
    lenses deliver less resolution than the sensors can resolve,
    except for the center at usually f/4-f/8. No matter how good
    the camera, your lens makes the image!

    Do not buy cheap, cheap lenses degrade your expensive dSLR to a
    4MPix or less camera.
    The 5D shows up problems even in very expensive and good lenses,
    since it records the borders as well. On the other hand, the 5D
    has less center resolution than most crop cameras (due to larger
    pixel size and huge sensor size), so lenses that are not perfect
    in the center may actually perform better on the 5D.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Dec 3, 2007
    #31
  12. Alan Calan

    Alan Guest

    On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 00:54:59 -0800, SMS ???• ?

    ..
    Well, if there is that much of a difference is it not stupid to have a
    new D300 not being full frame when Nikon's major competitor has a
    camera only a few hundred dollars more that is full frame?
    Aren't we somewhat dependent on how well and how fast a camera
    focuses? Unless we do it ourselves, whatever the camera does is what
    we get. In the pictures of the bears, where the "hairs" in the 5D
    pictures were in better focus, or maybe it was the extra megapixels)

    There was a comparison picture shooting up into a tree. Ken says the
    original picture was 44 inches. So was the piece he showed, just a
    tiny piece of a large picture or was that the entire picture shrunk
    down? As you can see I am very confused especially after Ken
    recommends the D200 over the 5D unless you need very large pictures or
    extreme wide angle lenses or you always use a tripod.
    The Nikon D3 is $5,000. How can you compare that to a $2,200 camera?
    Actually, this is important to me because I have an F5. What happens
    to DX lenses on the F5?. Between new DX lenses not being great on the
    F5, not being able to use the SB28 with the D200 or D300 and all my
    lenses are AF not AF-S, am I gaining that much by staying with Nikon
    or could I sell everything on Ebay and get used Canon compatilbe
    accessories, if there are any for the 5D.
    I get the feeling that Rockwell is doing the right thing but not
    explaining it well enough for us not so expereinced.
     
    Alan, Dec 3, 2007
    #32
  13. Alan Calan

    Guest Guest

    the d300 competes with the 40d. it's a little more expensive, but it
    also does a lot more, including 8fps and live view *with* autofocus.

    the 5d is over two years old and will probably be replaced some time
    next year but that's just rumour at this point.
    because if he made the appropriate comparison, he couldn't claim canon
    was perfect like he always does. the full frame d3 is up against the
    1.3x crop 1d mark iii.

    the reality is, both nikon and canon make excellent cameras and lenses.
    they vignette, except some dx lenses *will* cover the full area at some
    focal lengths. the d3 can switch into cropped dx mode, but since
    there's 12 megapixels for the entire frame, only 5 will be used in crop
    mode. still, the result is going to be very good, and much better than
    say a 6 megapixel d40, d50 or d70.

    of course, there's no requirement that you buy dx lenses; almost every
    nikon lens made in the last 30 years will work.
    sb-28 will work in auto mode with its built-in sensor. what it won't
    do is ttl with a digital slr, and those use a pre-flash that some
    people don't like, so you might even prefer using the sb-28.
    they'll work fine on any nikon camera including the d300 and d3. only
    with the d40/d40x will they not autofocus, although metering will still
    work.
    if you feel the 5d better fits your needs, you might consider
    switching, but so far, i don't see a compelling reason. you already
    own nikon lenses and a flash that will work.
    <http://kenrockwell.com/about.htm>

    While occasionally inspired by actual products or experiences, this
    site is entirely a work of fiction. It's a joke! Any resemblance to
    any actual people, places, products or anything is purely coincidental.

    I only update things as I discover errors. I offer no warrantees of
    any kind, except that there are many deliberate gaffes, practical
    jokes and downright foolish and made-up things lurking.

    keep that in mind as you read his pages. or, try reading someone more
    credible, such as thom hogan:
    <http://www.bythom.com/nikon.htm>

    or nikonians:
    <http://www.nikonians.org/>
     
    Guest, Dec 3, 2007
    #33
  14. Alan Calan

    frederick Guest

    nospam wrote:
    Really? How do you work that one out?
    With similar pixel density, I have little doubt that in crop mode, the
    result will be very similar to 6mp APS-c sesnor dslrs.
     
    frederick, Dec 3, 2007
    #34
  15. Alan Calan

    Robert Brace Guest

    Well Alan, I've come to the same conclusion as others who have tried to help
    you.
    It can't be done!
    You have ignored post after post re the use of the F5-SB28 combo and the
    ability of AF-S lenses to focus fast and accurately and apparently have
    swallowed the BS of Rockwell and SMS hook line & sinker.
    Therefore, you need to please run (don't walk) right out and buy a 5D and
    the appropriate complement of "L" lenses, then all will be right with the
    world (at least yours -- we can hope).
    Bob
     
    Robert Brace, Dec 3, 2007
    #35
  16. Alan Calan

    ASAAR Guest

    I also wouldn't give him that much credit. Many people today have
    never seen a watch or clock lacking an AM/PM indicator, or one that
    keeps military/24hr time. So today's stopped clocks may be said to
    be right once a day. Alas, SMS rarely does even that well. Far,
    far more rare would be any admissions of error or deception. :)
     
    ASAAR, Dec 4, 2007
    #36
  17. The characteristics of the sensor aren't going to change
    just because only 5M of the 12M pixels are being used.

    If it has lower noise and greater dynamic range at full
    frame, it will in DX mode too. And it should be just
    as able to go to ISO 6400...
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Dec 4, 2007
    #37
  18. Alan Calan

    Guest Guest

    with a 1 megapixel difference, the image quality will be pretty much
    the same if both sensors were the same. the key is that they're not
    the same.

    the sensor in the d3 is much better than the ones in the d40/50/70.
    there will be a *lot* less noise at higher isos and it will probably be
    noticable at lower isos too. and then there's the other stuff that's
    not directly related to image quality but can still make a difference
    in obtaining a decent photo, such as a much more capapble autofocus or
    a frame rate that can keep up with fast action.
     
    Guest, Dec 4, 2007
    #38
  19. Alan Calan

    frederick Guest


    I just don't believe that wrt noise performance.
    Look at D3 and D300 raw images _not_ converted in CaptureNX, and they
    aren't as noise-free as some would like to think.
     
    frederick, Dec 4, 2007
    #39
  20. Alan Calan

    jean Guest

    While all Nikons "may" be better according to some, an "exit poll" by camera
    make on PBase yields the following:

    40D 8,430
    1DS mkIII 6
    1D MkIII 111,462
    400D 312,797
    30D 793,794
    1D MkIIN 207,749
    5D 694,421
    20Da 583
    350D 1,145,996
    1DS MkII 97,096
    20D 2,525,611
    1D MkII 700,960
    300D 1,338,749
    1DS 47,474
    D60 184,317

    total: 8,169,445



    D3 22
    D300 132
    D40x 14,313
    D40 35,991
    D80 265,573
    D2Xs 73,990
    D200 1,007,478
    D50 436,346
    D70s 376,216
    D2Hs 21,593
    D2x 406,700
    D70 1,629,296
    D2h 189,434
    D100 506,969

    total: 4,964,053

    Either Canon users take more pictures with fewer cameras or Nikon users take
    fewer pictures with more cameras but I think it's a good indication of the
    number of cameras sold which leads to the question: why does Canon sell more
    cameras?

    Jean
     
    jean, Dec 4, 2007
    #40
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