Seek secret camcorder (like TV documentaries)

Discussion in 'Video Cameras' started by Anne R, Jul 1, 2006.

  1. Anne R

    Anne R Guest

    I'm in the UK and am looking for a secret camcorder similar to what
    they probably use in TV documentaries.

    I'm getting really messed up by a doctor (NHS hospital doc) and I
    want to record the stuff I have to go through in consultations as
    proof for a complaint. The consultations are only discussion and not
    a physical exam. Hard to explain but can't change doc easily.

    I'm guessing that some consumer camcorders may now small enough to
    hide on one's body. But I'm not well-off so I don't want to spend a
    ton of cash.

    Certainly camcorders are now small enough to hide in a bag with the
    lens pointing outwards through a hole in the bag but I guess I would
    need one with a wide-ish angle and a mic suited to picking up
    conversation in a small room.

    Can anyone recommend some models to put on my shortlist? Especially
    if they are end-of-line and good deals can be had at the moment.

    Thank you.
    Anne
     
    Anne R, Jul 1, 2006
    #1
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  2. Anne R

    :::Jerry:::: Guest

    <snip crap>

    A, what you are proposing to do is probably [1] very close to being
    illegal (before TV companies use secret cameras they clear it with
    their legal depts.), any evidence gained might not be admissible in
    any form in legal, disciplinary and other proceedings whilst it could
    lead to a claim against you. You will also need to spend more than
    you will be able to afford I suspect - the pin hole camera that you
    need can be bought cheaply BUT you then need a small portable video
    recorder and this will set you back around a 1000 USD / GBP.

    If you really want to make a secret recording, and as you say that
    the consultations are non physical why wont a simple audio recording
    do?

    [1] you don't say which jurisdiction you are in, the US, UK or
    Timbuktu...
     
    :::Jerry::::, Jul 1, 2006
    #2
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  3. Anne R

    Deep Reset Guest

    What Jerry said, aprat from you could get away without the VCR, and instead
    use
    a camcorder with analogue input.
    Don't try this at home.

    Deep.
     
    Deep Reset, Jul 1, 2006
    #3
  4. Yes she does.
     
    Laurence Payne, Jul 1, 2006
    #4
  5. Anne R

    Tony Morgan Guest

    You're quite right Jerry. Such unauthorised recording is in
    contravention of Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights
    which was introduced into UK law by the Human Rights Act 1998.

    There are exceptions of course, i.e.
    o Acting in the interests of national security, public safety
    or the economic well-being of the country.
    o Acting for the prevention of disorder or crime.
    o Acting for the protection of public health or morals.

    These are specified in the HRA (1998), but I find it hard to see that
    Ann can include her specific case in any of the above.

    Because of this, if it were discovered that Ann had made such
    unauthorised recordings, she might have all care withdrawn from her, at
    least by the hospital, and likely by her local NHS trust.

    If she has a complaint about her diagnosis or treatment, she should make
    a formal complaint (in writing) to her LHA. That way she would not be
    dis-enfranchised from health care - irrespective of whether or not there
    was any outcome from her complaint. LHAs are particularly sensitive
    about formal complaints, since any outcome (whether or not in Ann's
    favour) could result in litigation (and the award of substantial
    damages) in years to come. So Ann is likely to have any issues quickly
    resolved.
     
    Tony Morgan, Jul 2, 2006
    #5
  6. Anne R

    NoNoBadDog! Guest

    You are wasting your time. Any video you take without the doctors knowledge
    will *NOT* be admissible as evidence in court. In order to do so, the
    videotaping would have to be ordered by a district court judge, would have
    to be accomplished by trained personnel, and the video would have to be
    maintained in law enforcements hands at all times to insure that the video
    had not been altered.

    Bobby
     
    NoNoBadDog!, Jul 2, 2006
    #6
  7. Anne R

    p.valente Guest

    Anne R ha scritto:


    http://s4.bitefight.it/c.php?uid=19648
     
    p.valente, Jul 2, 2006
    #7
  8. Anne R

    p.valente Guest

    :::Jerry:::: ha scritto:

    http://s4.bitefight.it/c.php?uid=19648
     
    p.valente, Jul 2, 2006
    #8
  9. Anne R

    p.valente Guest

    Tony Morgan ha scritto:


    http://s4.bitefight.it/c.php?uid=19648
     
    p.valente, Jul 2, 2006
    #9
  10. Anne R

    :::Jerry:::: Guest

    <snip OT spam>
     
    :::Jerry::::, Jul 2, 2006
    #10
  11. I can see the headline:

    CONFUSED WOMAN MAKES RECORDING, SO HOSPITAL REFUSES TREATMENT
    Coroner slates RHO...

    The sad thing is, it just might happen :-(
     
    Laurence Payne, Jul 2, 2006
    #11
  12. Yes Jerry. We DID notice :)
     
    Laurence Payne, Jul 2, 2006
    #12
  13. Anne R

    Tony Morgan Guest

    The trick is to get LHA procedures and policies to work *for* you, and
    not against you.
     
    Tony Morgan, Jul 2, 2006
    #13
  14. We're not dealing with a rational thinker here. The problem is that a
    healthcare provider, of all people, might penalise her for this.
     
    Laurence Payne, Jul 2, 2006
    #14
  15. Anne R

    :::Jerry:::: Guest

    But then if one plays with fire one should expect the possibility of
    getting burnt - the point is, if the OP does have issues with her
    health care she should go through the correct channels as Tony says.
     
    :::Jerry::::, Jul 2, 2006
    #15
  16. Anne R

    Tony Morgan Guest

    You are a shining example of "a little knowledge is dangerous".

    I'd suggest you clue yourself up before applying something completely
    out of context to what the OP asked.

    As I pointed out already in this thread:

    <QUOTE>
    Such unauthorised recording is in contravention of Article 8 of the
    European Convention on Human Rights which was introduced into UK law by
    the Human Rights Act 1998.

    There are exceptions of course, i.e.
    o Acting in the interests of national security, public safety
    or the economic well-being of the country.
    o Acting for the prevention of disorder or crime.
    o Acting for the protection of public health or morals.

    These are specified in the HRA (1998), but I find it hard to see that
    Ann can include her specific case in any of the above.
    </QUOTE>

    Your example is within the context of "Acting for the prevention of
    disorder or crime", while Anne's is OUTSIDE the exceptions listed in the
    HRA (1998) above - so is not only inadmissible in court, but is in
    itself illegal. And because it is illegal, could be (and likely would
    be) used as a reason to refuse treatment by the relevant LHA.
     
    Tony Morgan, Jul 6, 2006
    #16
  17. You really think they'd treat a paranoid-obsessive so cruelly? After
    all, she's saved them the trouble of making a diagnosis :)

    Anyway, this would never come near a court of law. If she DID get
    evidence of malpractice, the hospital would publicly deny everything
    but have an effective word with the doctor in question. I have a
    pretty jaded view of the world, but not QUTE as jaded as Tony's. Yet
    :)
     
    Laurence Payne, Jul 6, 2006
    #17
  18. AIU, Article 8 covers what the state can or can't do to invade the privacy of
    the individual and family.

    I don't see how it applies to a private individual filming a state employed
    individual whose duty of care is to the individual.

    You would have to show that the medical professional's human rights outweighed
    the human rights of the patient who is collecting evidence of mis-treatment.

    In any case, it could not come to that as secret audio/video recordings are
    quite legal and acceptable as evidence - you must have seen secret videos made
    for/by insurance companies when attempting to disprove accident compensation
    claims (civil matters not criminal)

    AIH, I agree that, from the facts presented by the OP, that surreptitious
    filming is over the top in this case.


    regards

    Stuart

    www.mckears.com
     
    Stuart McKears, Jul 6, 2006
    #18
  19. Anne R

    Tony Morgan Guest

    The HRA is legislation applicable to *anybody* - not just the "state",
    as you seem to be suggesting.
     
    Tony Morgan, Jul 6, 2006
    #19
  20. Anne R

    Tony Morgan Guest

    There I would wholeheartedly agree with you - but not for the reason
    that you appear to suggest, but simply because any recording made as
    suggested is in contravention of the HRA and such a recording would seem
    to be the only evidence.
    Malpractice is AFAIK in the domain of the BMA, and not the courts.
    Negligence can be determined in the courts - malpractice no. It might
    seem to be hair-splitting but there is a considerable difference.

    I have had personal experience of LHAs (or more accurately the Luton &
    Dunstable Hospital Trust). My present wife had a bad RTA in which she
    fractured a vertebrae and four bones in her foot. She was taken to the
    L&D where she had her leg put in plaster which was removed three months
    later - but she was unable to obtain any subsequent physiotherapy or
    further treatment. The result was a misshapen foot and considerable
    difficulty in walking. A year later because she was still unable to walk
    properly, she signed up for treatment and surgery on my private health
    insurance (which fortunately covered her). The irony is that her
    subsequent private BUPA diagnosis, treatment and surgery was with the
    very same orthopaedic specialist who treated her in the L&D hospital.

    We then sent a letter to the Luton & Dunstable Hospital Trust,
    complaining about the treatment that she had received following her
    accident. After two months of silence, my wife's GP received a letter
    saying that the L&D could no longer accept referrals for any diagnosis
    or treatment of my wife.

    And yes. My opinions of health services are jaded.....
     
    Tony Morgan, Jul 6, 2006
    #20
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