Seeking a concise Canon CHDK (Firmware hack) site?

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by Doug Bashford, May 11, 2011.

  1. Doug Bashford

    DanP Guest

    Suppose I have my car's ECU remapped (chipped) so I get more power out
    of the engine. Would that break any manufacturer's rights?

    With software user has a licence to use it and does not own it. With a
    camera the user owns it and is free to modify it.

    If Canon had a sound case about other people reverse engineering its
    products it would have stopped Sigma/Tamron/Tokina long ago.


    DanP
     
    DanP, Jun 9, 2011
    #41
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  2. Doug Bashford

    PeterN Guest

    You both are missing an even more subtle conundrum. Under IP law if
    Canon does not defend its IP rights, it looses them. If Canon made a
    business decision to let the undefended rights quietly go into the
    public domain, I am not privy to that information.
     
    PeterN, Jun 9, 2011
    #42
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  3. Doug Bashford

    Walter Banks Guest

    Canon has defended their IP rights for their products. They have also
    demonstrated respect for others IP rights. They are not obliged
    to fend off everyone to retain those rights. The original CHDK hack
    was done in Russia. Canon has a well supported SDK for developers
    and are clear about what information is in the public domain.

    w..
     
    Walter Banks, Jun 9, 2011
    #43
  4. Doug Bashford

    Walter Banks Guest

    Some of our customers are third party ECU developers who independently
    produce alternative code sets. Most notably the 500 - 1500 mile engines
    used in competitive racing. NASCAR for example in 2012. The same code
    sets can be used in street cars. Most of these trade engine life and
    fuel economy for performance.

    All of the third party code sets that I know about have appropriate code
    licensing. It is primarily a myth about hacked ECU code magically providing
    dramatic performance improvements. Getting rid of RPM limiters in hacked
    code generally would be an invitation for broken valve springs and bearing
    failures in street cars. It is a self correcting problem

    Walter Banks
    Byte Craft Limited
     
    Walter Banks, Jun 9, 2011
    #44
  5. Doug Bashford

    PeterN Guest

    As well they should.
    I was talking about only the IP rights that may have been violated using
    CHDK.
    Since I am not a Canon user I do not follow the detail.
     
    PeterN, Jun 9, 2011
    #45
  6. Doug Bashford

    PeterN Guest

    It seems to me that using hacked code could void warrantys
     
    PeterN, Jun 9, 2011
    #46
  7. Doug Bashford

    DanP Guest

    CHDK is run from a prepared SD card. After replacing the card with a
    blank one there is no trace CHDK was run on that camera.
    So unless the user hands in the camera with CHDK on it or admits using
    it Canon has to service it.

    DanP
     
    DanP, Jun 9, 2011
    #47
  8. Doug Bashford

    DanP Guest

    But the user can use non licensed codes, right? Losing the warranty of
    course.
    No car manufacturer would object to it, only advise against it.

    DanP
     
    DanP, Jun 9, 2011
    #48
  9. Doug Bashford

    PeterN Guest


    In a car?
     
    PeterN, Jun 9, 2011
    #49
  10. Doug Bashford

    Walter Banks Guest

    It is like any third party add on. Third parties develop original work or
    a combination of licensed and original IP Owners can use the software
    it at their own risk.

    CHDK is mostly Canon's unlicensed IP and that is where the issues
    start to come into it. There is original IP in CHDK that could have
    been turned into an interesting product in my opinion. There is other
    third party code written to support Canon camera's licensed through
    Canon's SDK.

    w..
     
    Walter Banks, Jun 9, 2011
    #50
  11. You mean someone I sold my house, including the laptop and Beatles
    Butcher LP, to, entering said house and putting both in a StarTrek
    replicator to create a copy for themselves?

    And that is forbidden because I locked the door before selling
    the house?

    And that is amoral because they might also in the business of
    selling houses and now might place the LP and the laptop in
    their houses, *instead* of Mona Lisa copies and fridges and big
    TV screens?

    And that is amoral because they might offer cool programs for said
    laptop for anyone to copy for free, which work on most Canon-built
    houses with Beatles Butcher LP and laptop?

    Neither is illegal, btw.
    You don't understand CHDK at all, do you?
    If they don't complain about the noise in the high ISO settings
    on board, I doubt they'll complain about the noise in the higher
    ISO settings.
    They get to sell more cameras.
    Of course that is no win for them, since they aren't making money
    from that.
    Doug is free to find a camera that has the features he needs
    inbuild. Finding that camera will mean spending time, possibly
    a lot of time, probably to find no such beast exists. Then the
    commercial non-offering will never ever be redeemed, unlike his
    CHDK search, which has yielded information to be used.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 9, 2011
    #51
  12. Sorry, what exactly was *copied* by CHDK? You know, it's COPYright, not
    exclude-others-from-building-sandcastles-with-the-sand-and-bucket-they-bought-from-me-right.

    And yes, it's ethical to use the things one has bought even if
    the seller didn't think one would. And it's ethical to share
    with others.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 9, 2011
    #52
  13. Doug Bashford

    DanP Guest

    CHDK is not Canon's IP. CHDK is making use of Canon's IP which is not
    reproduced or altered in any way.


    DanP
     
    DanP, Jun 10, 2011
    #53
  14. OK, you asked for it: Provide proof.
    Now.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jun 11, 2011
    #54
  15. Re: Seeking a concise Canon CHDK (Firmware hack) site?;
    Is THAT all the excuses you can contrive!? :)
    Will you agree every one is arguable?
    ....and....????


    The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
    The rational change their world view to fit the facts.
     
    Doug Bashford, Jun 16, 2011
    #55
  16. Re: Seeking a concise Canon CHDK (Firmware hack) site?;
    Exactly. But there's more concise ways of putting that.
    Simply put, not all property rights are equal.
    Theft is violation of property rights.
    So stealing one thing is often less of an ethical violation
    than another. And the law (punishment) supports this.

    aproximate order:
    Personal property & tools.
    Business property.
    bank accounts.
    land ownership
    intellectual rights

    That order is true in most cultures, however
    they vary widly, for example Native Americans
    and OT Jews didn't believe in personal land ownership.
    American culture is the most possesive in the
    world, you can't download the novel 1984 here,
    but it's OK in most of the world...etc...

    So one's high horse regarding "theft" of "intellectual
    property rights," is a result of our cultural
    indoctrinization, which granted, is pushed by the
    most cutting edge mind-bending that Madison Avenue
    can devise. (IOW; that humans can devise.)
    (That's all just simple economics.)

    By definition, property rights are the right to deny
    the benefits of that property to others,
    which has potential to cost society,
    for example, if clean water was 10 cents/gallon.


    Oh please! Now's not the time to ruin a perfectly
    good soundsgoodism! Why, with that hint of moral
    indignation, why, we had a bit of feelsgoodism going too!
    Yer no fun!
    No, not in the "economic theory" sense of choice.
    As you know, that assumes perfect knowledge.

    I ended up buying the sx120 10X rather than the competing
    Lumix 12X and new sx130 12X w HDvideo based on presuming
    that CHDK was not in a shambles, based on a raves
    here and my positive experience with reputable freeware
    elsewhere. As it turned out, since the new upgraded
    sx130 got instant CHDK, I should have got that. The
    better photo qual Lumix? ...arguable. My costs were more
    than the utterly unforeseen and excessive "hobby time."

    No biggy, this time got it wrong and lost.
    Some see mowing the lawn as leisure activity too.
    I see it and some other nessesities as unpleasantries
    cutting into my leisure time. Others are in a position to
    hire a gardner. Them's just the facts.

    Oh, BTW I tried to logon to setepontos.com today, and
    it refused to send me my registration email. Retry, and
    it looped to: ERROR! Email sent.
    Nope, not sent. Yup, error.
    I had intended to ask a question and leave some pointers
    for newbies.
    ....but what is needed is deletion, plenty of deletion.
    I'm not qualified for that. Not even close.




    The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
    The rational change their world view to fit the facts.
     
    Doug Bashford, Jun 16, 2011
    #56
  17. Re: Seeking a concise Canon CHDK (Firmware hack) site?;
    While theoretically CHDK could harm a camera,
    for example taking a picture every 2 seconds for
    months at a time, that threat is not practical.

    All CHDK does is pull the levers that Canon
    has kindly left accesable. It it bothered them,
    they would no longer be accessable after all
    these different processors.

    It sells cameras, go to Wikipedia, CHDK is
    a powershot biggy in the *lead section!*
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_PowerShot

    It's why I bought Canon rather than Lumix.
    CHDK is there because Canon wants it there.
    That's just simple economics.





    The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
    The rational change their world view to fit the facts.
     
    Doug Bashford, Jun 16, 2011
    #57
  18. Re: Seeking a concise Canon CHDK (Firmware hack) site?;
    Yup. But Fox-Limbaugh&Co teach that evidence must be
    weighed according to it's soundsgood factor and that
    armchair postulating is as good (better, actually) as
    science. *Everthing* is only a matter of (political)
    opinion, and Science is in on the Vast Evil Plot. .

    smile



    The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
    The rational change their world view to fit the facts.
     
    Doug Bashford, Jun 16, 2011
    #58
  19. Doug Bashford

    Bruce Guest


    Agree 100%.
     
    Bruce, Jun 16, 2011
    #59
  20. Re: Seeking a concise Canon CHDK (Firmware hack) site?;
    Yup. It's the microsoft definition of KISS:
    Keep It comicbook Simple for Stupid. That's us.
    I believe it was the Elph line that had
    IR remote removed. Another Canon removed twisty
    LCDs for awhile.

    While the market has proven that MS KISS works,
    CHDK fills a void, a nich market. But in my opinion,
    that market can be widely expanded at little cost,
    I think it must be shrinking now due to sloppy,
    undisciplined, aimlessly wandering haphazard documentation.

    And manufcturers seemingly HATE physical buttons,
    while recognizing that the endless nested cascading
    menus are already unweildy and already border on the absurd.
    (But those are free to manufacture and maintain.)

    But techies like us can deal with it, and
    Canon recognizes the hacker/tweakers luvs them.

    Manf' HATE buttons, yup?

    I notice one can now buy universal remotes at the dollar
    store.
    If Bossman saw the longterm and understood radio, one could
    program it via your cellphone's QWERTY keypad. Soon all
    universal remotes, like cellphones, will have full keypads;
    onscreen or otherwise.

    The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
    The rational change their world view to fit the facts.
     
    Doug Bashford, Jun 16, 2011
    #60
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