{SI] Shoot-In - Fractal Comments

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by Mardon, Oct 11, 2006.

  1. Mardon

    Mardon Guest

    One early October Tuesday evening in Newfoundland, Mardon put down
    his paintbrush to check the r.p.e.35 newsgroup. (His wife kept
    painting.) Lo and behold, the SI fractal submissions were on
    display in their full glory, even before the submission deadline
    arrived. Talk about efficiency. There's no flies on our Jim, as
    the saying goes. I wonder if Al is impressed or just glad that the
    job isn't his anymore.

    "Natural Fractals" Hummm --- I own a text on Chaos Theory. I've
    installed Quat and Fractint and have used them on my PC to generate
    my own fractal images. I've even installed an image of Henrik
    Engstrom's quaternion Mandelbrot set circa 1992 as my PC wallpaper.
    All that said, I still have no idea which of the SI submissions is
    really a natural fractal and which isn't. Unlike image plots of
    fractal equations, I'm inclined to think that natural fractals
    exist only in the mind of the beholder. So does beauty, and here's
    my opinion of both:

    James Mondor
    http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/68336427
    I like the film 'feel' and the grain in the dark areas of the
    background but I'd like to see the foreground leaves be sharper.
    The white and dark spots on the leaves are also distracting to my
    eye. What would this have been like without the orange filter I
    wonder? Any special reason for using it? I remember using a dark
    red filter a lot for that dramatic looks with B/W film.

    Walter Banks
    http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/68336535
    Nice colours! Common wisdom is that tree branches are natural
    fractals but I don't think that applies to leaves, so a 5 point
    deduction. As already mentioned, the leaf colours are nice; I wish
    the sky were a slightly darker blue. I'm glad the image is not
    over sharpened. This is the sort of content that looks bad when
    over sharpened.

    Quercus
    http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/68336553
    Common wisdom also says ferns are natural fractals but I don't
    think this is a fern. I can't conceive of those oblong leaves being
    made up of smaller oblong patterns, etc; no fractal, so 5 points
    off. I really like the colours. My mother always said that blue
    and green don't go together but I never did believe that saying.
    The shadows on the lower leaves and the lack of shadows on the
    upper ones, combined with the clouds make for a very nice image.

    Bowser
    http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/68336559
    Nice image! Are the barnacles the natural fractals or the rust? I
    suspect the rust is really more fractal in nature than the
    barnacles but who cares. No deduction because one of them must be
    fractal in nature. The orange and white complements each other
    well and I like the composition, with mostly white to the upper
    left and mostly rust to the lower right.

    Al Denelsbeck
    http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/68336564
    How'd you do that? The lily pad looks like it's under the surface
    of the water but the droplets wouldn't float on water would they?
    It seems logical that the droplets must be sitting on the leaf but
    it doesn't look that way to my eye. Intriguing! The veins are no
    doubt fractal in nature, so do deduction there. To paraphrase our
    friend Bret, too bad "Elitechrome 100 Hates Lily Pads".
    "Elitechrome 100 LOVES those bubbles though." Too much washed out
    green for my taste.


    Jim Kramer
    http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/68336571
    It's wet. It's soft. It's somehow connected with the insect world
    (I think). It may be alive. But is it a natural fractal? Don't
    think so. Minus 5 points. My favorite part of this image is the one
    rounded, brown tip of the dark leaf at the top edge of the image
    and the strands of web that lead down from there. The white strand
    at the lower left is also interesting but the glob in the middle
    just confuses me. What is it?

    Mardon
    http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/68338439
    I thought about cooking a DVD in our microwave and repeating the
    fractal image from Wikipedia
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Microwaved-DVD.jpg). In the
    end, I'm not sure if it was my reluctance to 'steal' the idea from
    Wiki or the fear of having my wife catch me putting a metal DVD in
    the microwave that ultimately dissuaded me. ;) I opted for this
    lichen from a rock in our back yard. It took all of a 10 minute
    break from my painting time to photograph and post it. 5 point
    deduction because I'm still not sure myself if lichen grows in the
    pattern of a natural fractal.

    Duncan Chesley
    http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/68348233
    The good My favorite image of the bunch. The bad One
    of my least favorite bunches. 5 bonus points for shooting what
    looks like a natural fractal to me. I like the colours and
    composition. Was this posed or natural? If natural, you caught a
    really good angle.


    N Lindan
    http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/68354426
    Very clever! I love the inclusion of the torn plastic. The
    staging of the 3 elements is very neat. I'm not fond of the large
    white patches in the blossom but I like the water drops. I think
    I'd also prefer a totally black background instead of the white
    specs all over it; especially in the upper right corner. I give
    "N" 10 bonus points of actually looking at the plastic under a
    microscope to very the fractal nature of the tear. Especially when
    considering the mandate, this is probably the 2nd place ribbon IMO.
     
    Mardon, Oct 11, 2006
    #1
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  2. Try the source:

    "The Fractal Geometry of Nature", B. Mandelbrot
    Also "The Algorithmic Geometry of Plants", Lindenmayer et. al.

    Fractals aren't the mathematical eyecandy - fractals are
    a property of nature that the eyecandy imitates.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal
    http://library.thinkquest.org/26242/full/ap/ap15.html

    But images of coastlines and fern leaves are boring, and
    so not much attention is given to them. The interesting
    point is that what appear to be very complex structures
    arise from very simple generating rules.
     
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Oct 11, 2006
    #2
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  3. Thanks, Mardon. Be sure I'm saving up those bonus points. It's all
    natural. I was wandering around looking at the leaves on the trees
    near my home, when, unlike me, I looked down. Straight down. And,
    after a little camera orientation, snap.

    Cheers,
    DuncanC
     
    Duncan Chesley, Oct 11, 2006
    #3
  4. Mardon

    JimKramer Guest

    It is the egg case for a Green Lynx Spider Legs of which ar in the the
    background.

    Other thoughts here
    http://si.jlkramer.net/fractal.htm

    Thanks for commenting,

    Jim
     
    JimKramer, Oct 11, 2006
    #4
  5. Mardon

    Walter Banks Guest

    Thanks for your comments. Looks like I should have waited a few weeks for the leaves to fall from the central maple tree tree in the image so the branches would have been more obvious. I would have missed the colour show.

    I was looking for a central fractal theme surrounded by common diverse range of maple leaf sizes (not a fractal but close) and spectrum of colours, both consistent with the fractal theme to support the tree fractal. My Daddy was right stick to thirds or
    they won't see it.

    The image was cropped and re-sized not processed in any other way, softened by using an old Canon rebel film camera kit lens.

    w..
     
    Walter Banks, Oct 11, 2006
    #5
  6. Mardon

    Annika1980 Guest

    Annika1980, Oct 11, 2006
    #6
  7. Mardon

    JimKramer Guest

    You need to get out more if you need to drag in an image from last year
    :)
     
    JimKramer, Oct 11, 2006
    #7
  8. It has much the same form as the sprout from a potato
    http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/plaveg/potpom/var/keswick/potato21d.jpg
    http://research.cip.cgiar.org/potato/GR_FOTOS/SPROUT/384073.457-sprout-N.jpg_medium.jpg

    That looks a bit like roman cauliflower
    http://www.notthisorthat.com/sblog/uploads/fractal_cauliflower.jpg

    That looks a bit like a Julia set [sort of a Mandelbrot set turned inside
    out]
    http://www.fractalartcontests.com/1998/images/258.gif


    So what do all these have to do with the equation for the Mandelbrot
    set:

    2
    Z = Z + Z
    n+1 n n

    Where Z is a complex number: x + yi, where i is the square root of -1

    http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/~mjmcguff/codeGallery/mandelbrot.gif

    Which looks a bit like the egg case for a green Lynx spider.
     
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Oct 11, 2006
    #8
  9. Mardon

    Ben Brugman Guest

    Droplets wil float on water. In my kitchen I can let droplets float on
    the water. The droplets do look similar as in the picture.
    You are probably correct that the leaf is under water and that the
    droplets float on the water. Soo you spotted this right.

    ben
     
    Ben Brugman, Oct 11, 2006
    #9
  10. Mardon

    Quercus Guest

    Wow, man, you're being hard on me... Chrome was not chrome, natural
    fractal is not fractal... snif :-(

    I had the doubt with the chrome one, but I must disagree with this
    fractal thing. The leaves are not made up of oblong patterns; I was
    looking, in fact, the whole branch :) If you pay attention the whole
    set of leaves has an oblong form (sort of, at least), similar to the
    oblong form that has each little branch on the sides of the main
    "trunk", and similar itself to the shape of every single leave...
    That's where I see the fractal, may be only in my eyes anyway...

    About the green and blue... I know some people that think like your
    mom, but I just don't see why blue and green are supposed to not going
    together, they are everywhere in nature and they feel fine there.

    I'm glad that you like the shadows and the lack of them, it was a risky
    bet for me, as I was not sure if I liked that effect, or not. So I
    chose to take the picture and decide later... And I'm still thinking
    :)

    Thanks for your comments, I'll try to catch a no-doubt-one for the
    timing mandate for you ;-)

    -Quercus-

    P.S: I'm pushing my limits with english in these comments, so I hope
    I'm explaining myself in a correct way.

    Mardon wrote:
     
    Quercus, Oct 12, 2006
    #10
  11. Mardon

    Mardon Guest

    I didn't mean to be hard on you. In fact, you were in a close race
    for 2nd place until I eventually gave that position to N Lindan.
    See, here's your third place ribbon: (3)==*** :)
    You make a good point. I've re-instated 4 points from the 5 point
    deduction. Can't say I'm not a flexible grader!
    I agree 100%. I like the combination.
    No need for further thought here. I like it. :)
    Looking forward to it. :)
    You're not "pushing it" at all. I'd say your writing is better
    than 90% of Usenet posters whose mother tongue is English. And in
    case there's any doubt, you have way more than enough English
    writing skills to submit your own SI review. If nothing else,
    doing so would be a good way to 'get even' with me. ;)
     
    Mardon, Oct 12, 2006
    #11
  12. OK, imagine a green car with a blue interior [try and buy
    one - I read the factory won't take an order for a green &
    blue car].
    The only thing really blue in nature is the sky. There are
    [I imagine] a few deep blue flowers but I only know of
    a small blue lily.

    If you look at the color sensitivity of the eye we are least
    sensitive to the blues, with a big hole in the cyan section
    of the spectrum: the green receptors peter out before cyan and
    the blue receptors haven't yet started picking up signal.

    Interestingly, the color completely lacking in nature is cyan.
    We can not discern subtle shades of cyan: all cyans look
    like turquoise/swimming pool paint.

    Where the red and green receptors overlap is yellow, and
    we can see a zillion shades of yellow, green-yellow and
    orange - and brown, brown being a desaturated low-value
    yellow. Green leaves, yellow flowers, most food on the
    hoof is brown and hides in the forest/grass among other
    brown/yellow/green grasses, forest floor cover. Evolution
    makes the yellows colors of great interest. Wasps are
    colored yellow/black because it stands out.
     
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Oct 12, 2006
    #12
  13. Mardon

    Frank ess Guest

    A good time to ask my "blue question": does anyone know of a popular,
    naturally blue food? Ever since my birthday in 1945, when none of the
    kids would eat the blue layer of a special patriotic cake, I've
    wondered.
     
    Frank ess, Oct 12, 2006
    #13
  14. Blueberries.

    Cheers,
    DuncanC
     
    Duncan Chesley, Oct 12, 2006
    #14
  15. & plums, grapes, & several other berries, and my wife bought a blue (or was
    it purple) cauliflower last Saturday......
     
    William Graham, Oct 12, 2006
    #15
  16. Mardon

    Quercus Guest

    Ok, thank you, I'll put my ribbon with the other ones :)
    You are, you are :))))))))))))))))
    Well, that's enough for me. But I am probably biased, as I do love
    forests, mountains, and blue skies. May be a green and blue car doesn't
    look fine, but a tree against a blue sky looks perfect for me, it's
    interesting how some people just hold on the idea that blue and green
    doesn't play well together and just say a picture "isn't that good"
    just because those colors fill it. Really interesing your words about
    color perception, I knew about green receptors dominating the others,
    but little more.

    Anyway, colors are just light reflection and absortion. So, once more
    everything in photography is about the light :)
     
    Quercus, Oct 12, 2006
    #16
  17. Mardon

    Mardon Guest

    Blue potatoes are common here. Many Newfoundlanders prefer them.
    They are not a deep blue but still, definately blue.
     
    Mardon, Oct 12, 2006
    #17
  18. Mardon

    Desdinova Guest

    If it wasn't on, there wouldn't be as large of a difference in exposure
    from light to dark nor would the leaves on the lower right be as
    exposed as they had already turned their fall colour.
    I had some almost similar images that came sharper:
    http://tea.h1x.com:8080/usenet/hudson12 web.jpg (server's a bit
    pokey)
    but I didn't like it as much as the one I submitted, which had a sort
    of spiral flow which reminded me of fractals I had seen.

    Thanks for the comments on mine and everyone's submissions.
    Take care,
    James
     
    Desdinova, Oct 12, 2006
    #18
  19. Mardon

    Desdinova Guest

    I'm no good with articulating praise and/or critique, so I'll just
    comment on the ones that struck me.

    Bowser:
    I think I like your's the best. It reminds me of the old Life computer
    simulation.

    Mardon:
    I love the texture and not-quite symmetry

    Alan Browne:
    I don't think I've seen a fern that colour or at least stay that colour
    for long. It's almost like tarnished gold leaf, if there is such a
    thing.

    Jim Kramer:
    Your's is the only one I can't see what is going on, maybe I'm missing
    something.

    Take care,
    James
     
    Desdinova, Oct 12, 2006
    #19
  20. Mardon

    Mardon Guest

    I like this one much better than your SI submission. Then again,
    I've already admitted to this group several times that I'm not a big
    fan of 'soft focus'. Oh well, differences in people help make the
    world go 'round.
     
    Mardon, Oct 12, 2006
    #20
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