Sigma/Foveon change their tune (great technical article)

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by George Preddy, Oct 27, 2003.

  1. George Preddy

    Bill M Guest

    still babbling away about 6.3MP cameras being 1.58MP I see. A 6.3MP
    Bayer based camera measures light at 6.3M spatially unique locations.
    It then uses EVERY one of those to build a 6.3MP image (no orphans, no
    4:1 upscaling, etc). Your SD9 may measure light at 10.3M locations,
    but only 3.43M are spatially unique locations since the 10.3M are
    co-located on the sensor (stacked in other words). Guess what else
    George? Your SD9 has ONE sensor, not three...you get over it.
     
    Bill M, Dec 13, 2003
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  2. George Preddy

    JPS Guest

    In message <brf3bm$rki$>,
    No; I meant that the 6.3MP figure was true, not that some pixels were
    interpolated. You knew that, but being the liar you are, you had to
    repsond to me as if I meant something else that you clearly know I don't
    mean.
    Totally different. The Fuji measure nothing in half the pixels.
    It's not wrong, but it may prove to be unnecessary, if technology
    continues to allow more Bayer pixels to fit on a given area of silicon
    than foveon-like stacks. All other things being equal, a stack of RGB
    sensors would be better. There are no worthy contenders at the moment;
    the Sigma cameras collect artifacts to wow the point-and-shooters with
    false sharpness, and the Foveon is too fuzzy with color channels.
    The individual filtered bayer sensors are "optically discreet".
    That's all it can see, in terms of hue frequency with constant
    luminance. That does not happen where I take photos, and my eyes
    couldn't appreciate if it happened at a full 6.3MP level, anyway, unless
    I blew up a print so big that I could see tiles for pixels.
    That is your set of limited options, and they are both wrong. Reality
    goes more like this, with proper qualification


    10D SD9

    megasensors 6.3 10.3

    megapixels 6.3 3.43
    (luminance)

    megapixels 1.58 3.43
    (hue)

    Absolute color excellent poor
    accuracy, based
    on 2*2 pixel
    averaging
    I knew all about the soft images out of the camera, and the difference
    between Bayer and Foveon when I bought my 10D. I had already seen the
    SD9 pictures that Guido linked to before I bought my 10D. I thought
    they looked artificially sharp, and the more of them I have examined,
    the more I am certain that neither Foveon nor Sigma have anything
    revolutionary; just a cheap trick to make it look like the Foveon is
    giving sharp pictures, when it is the lack of proper spatial filtering
    and microlenses that make SD9 output look sharp (with artifacts).

    --
     
    JPS, Dec 13, 2003
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  3. ....33% of the...
    It's functionally a 3 chip camera fabbed as one. I know you think there is
    only 1 chip in all 3 chip cameras, thus your insistance that the other
    sensors on the other 2 chips have absolutely no impact on image quality, but
    you are obviously wrong.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 15, 2003
  4. George Preddy

    Bill M Guest

    wrong, luminance is measured at all 6.3mp locations...
    never said a 3 chip camera had only 1 chip...nor do I think it. 3 chip
    means 3 chips, not 1. Nor did I insist the anything about the other 2
    chips. You obviously like to make stuff up...
     
    Bill M, Dec 15, 2003
  5. 33% of it is measured.

    Foveon measures 100% luminance and 100% of color for each and every output
    pixel, no interpolation. Bayer measures 33% luminance and 25% color for
    every output pixel, huge interpolation. Night and day.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 15, 2003
  6. Don't worry about it, George. Note how the fanatical Canonazis are
    gearing themselves up to launch similar bitter attacks on the new
    Olympus E-1, and how they prejudge any Minolta DSLR before one's even
    gone into production?
     
    Independent Sigma Evaluator, Dec 15, 2003
  7. They really should be thrilled that some manufacturer's are trying to help
    drag prices back up again. This is great news for Canon/Nikon/Fuji if it
    can be pulled off, but I think Sigma has let the genie out of the bottle at
    this point.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 15, 2003
  8. George Preddy

    Crownfield Guest

    but one of the big foveon problems,
    otherthan its tiny sensor array or 3mp,
    is what colors does it measure?

    It has the largest calculation burden of any camera
    in trying to figure out what color it just saw.

    the poor images show the result of poor color sensors.
    foveon has troubles in both.
     
    Crownfield, Dec 15, 2003
  9. That's the theory. If it actually performed like a 3-chip camera, we'd
    all be impressed.

    But it does not. Colour reproduction, which it ought to be
    particularly good at, is poor. Not to mention the aliasing artifacts,
    which are not the sensor's fault, but they are the fault of the
    manufacturer of the only camera you can buy a Foveon sensor in.

    Dave
     
    Dave Martindale, Dec 15, 2003
  10. George Preddy

    Guest Guest


    ROFL. Yeah you can see them all lining up there "E1 is junk posts". The only
    posts I've seena re arguing the merits of the different sensor sizes, which
    is perfectly valid. Oly shot themselves in the foot by bringing out a 5MP
    camera in a market crowded with 6MP models. Sigma shot themselves in the
    fooy by releasing a camera with no AA filter and poor color rendition.
     
    Guest, Dec 16, 2003
  11. That is a physical trait, there is no way to change that. It is a 3 chip
    camera, fabbed as one. But it doesn't matter, becauase all the nasty Bayer
    lovers here insist that all 3 chip camera only have 1 chip.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 16, 2003
  12.  
    George Preddy, Dec 16, 2003
  13. You stand corrected.
    Obviously, beautiful ones.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 16, 2003
  14. George Preddy

    Bill M Guest

     
    Bill M, Dec 16, 2003
  15. George Preddy

    Bill M Guest

    I've seen nobody insist that a 3 chip camera has 1 chip other than you
    (claiming the foveon is a 3 chip fabbed as one). So you're caught in
    yet another lie...

    FWIW, I agree with Dave...if it actually performed like a 3 chip
    camera, I'd be impressed. Every SD9 picture you have posted has been
    God awful and you are the only one who thinks they look good...
     
    Bill M, Dec 16, 2003
  16. Nope. The beamsplitter in a 3-chip camera doesn't mess up the color.
    Foveon's design results in some very odd color output.
    "nasty Bayer lovers"? Talking dirty to yourself, George?
     
    Albert Nurick, Dec 16, 2003
  17. George Preddy

    Crownfield Guest

    but one of the big foveon problems,
    other than its tiny sensor array or 3mp,
    is what colors does it measure?

    It has the largest calculation burden of any camera
    in trying to figure out what color it just saw.

    the poor images show the result of poor color sensors.

    if you quote me, please include something I said.
    imaginary ones!
     
    Crownfield, Dec 16, 2003
  18. Actually I think that its more like 1000% luminance and 2000% colour at each
    pixel. The results speak for themselves, why are all the these Bayer camera
    owners so blind?
    Yes Sd9 pics are beautiful and smooth and full of sublte tones and razor
    sharp detail. Bayer pics, well they are all just rubbish but what can you
    expect from the heavily interpolated 229 pixel 10D.
     
    Manfred von Richthofen, Dec 17, 2003
  19. Yes Olympus are crooks claiming 5MP resoution. The pictures all look like
    they have been taken in dense fog, unlike the sd9 with it 14MP output and
    fantastic color rendition.
     
    Manfred von Richthofen, Dec 17, 2003
  20. George Preddy

    JPS Guest

    In message <brpajn$mfm$>,
    Trolling ... how original.
    --
     
    JPS, Dec 17, 2003
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