Sigma/Foveon change their tune (great technical article)

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by George Preddy, Oct 27, 2003.

  1. George Preddy

    Bill M Guest

    Never said that either George. You really have a hard time reading,
    don't you? You twist, lie, mis-quote and mis-represent the statements
    of others as you see fit. In short, you're about the most dishonest
    poster I've ever run across in all my years of reading
    forums/newsgroups. You never answer a direct question from anyone,
    unless it suits your agenda. I could stoop to your level and do as you
    do, but that's not me. Apparently, you have no trouble at all being a
    slimeball...as my granny always said "breeding tells".
     
    Bill M, Dec 23, 2003
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  2. Ok, so why is it, exactly, that you claim Foveon only has one layer?
     
    George Preddy, Dec 24, 2003
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  3. George Preddy

    Bill M Guest

    You pathetic liar...I said it's a one sensor camera...as in one chip,
    not 3. Like I said, you cannot read with comprehension...
     
    Bill M, Dec 24, 2003
  4. No, you didn't, you say Foveon has the same resolution as a 2268 x 1512 1
    layer chip. Obviously, that's wrong, for the same reason 3 chip cameras are
    vastly superior to 1 chip cameras. You readily acknowledge that fact, yet
    you say this is not true but only in the case of Foveon. Presumably,
    because you didn't know Foveon was a 3 layers at 2268 x 1512, not 1 layer of
    2268 x 1512 as you still claim, and thus bought the wrong camera.

    You simply cannot agree that 3 layers is better than 1 and not agree than
    Foveon bests all Bayer sensors, it isn't a logic based argument, it is
    emotion based, and clearly irrational.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 24, 2003
  5. George Preddy

    imbsysop Guest

    go read the tech specs at www.foveon.com and short cicuit yr own idiotic
    thinking .. you do not seem able to read a simple tech statement .. did you
    try to put yr head between the two mains wires just to induce a system brain
    clear & reset ? clearly yr memory cells suffer from a system deadlock ..
    sheez I've never come to realize that such mutants really did exist .. (and
    we do a lot in Biotech)
     
    imbsysop, Dec 24, 2003
  6. George Preddy

    Bill M Guest

    It has the same spatial witness as a 2268 x 1512 camera, get over it.
    You could have 30 layers and it still won't change that fact. There
    are no consumer available 3 chip digital still cameras, so that's a
    From what I've seen in Foveon pictures, your SD9 has a tough team
    beating some P&S Bayer cameras...as far as irrational, look in the
    mirror.
     
    Bill M, Dec 24, 2003
  7. So it is 1 layer according to you, make up your mind.

    And are you claiming that the R, G, and B spectrums are all exactly the
    same? If not, all three layers sample independently, so the R, G, and B
    pixel count is fully additive. Same goes for Bayer, sampling next to
    another sensor of a mutually exclusive population, or sampling from behind
    that transparent sensor, makes absolutely no difference. So obviously the
    SD9 is 10.3MP. It is actually a much more efficient 10.3MP than a Bayer
    10.3MP would be, since Bayer has to throw away 25% of it's sensor count in
    exchange for a scalable 2D design.
    So again, you are claiming the Foveon is a 1 layer camera.
    Which is better...
    http://www.pbase.com/image/22481910
    http://www.pbase.com/image/22481699

    Both are the same, according to you.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 24, 2003
  8. George Preddy

    Bill M Guest

    It could have layers to the moon and it still won't change the spatial
    witness! You'll never get it...
    Your SD9 has 10.3M worth of sensors, 3.43MP of image...big difference.
    As before, Bayer does not throw away 25% of it's sensor count, which
    you can't prove either. Don't bother posting your sensor breakout
    chart, as it proves nothing about discarded sensors. All it proves is
    Bayer is 25%R/50%G/25%B, which I knew long before you arrived.
    You still can't read...3 layers are not 3 chips.
    Neither is a shining example, and I see sharpening in the SD9 shot,
    forgot to set that slider to -1 huh?
     
    Bill M, Dec 24, 2003
  9. I get it, you think its 1 layer.

    3 layers = 3 times the number of samples in the same space. The samples are
    taken from mutually exlusive populations, so there is no "layering" from an
    optical POV, each layer is the top layer, the first surface the sampled
    photons hit. So you are actually right by accident, there is only one
    layer, optically, but it has 10.3M sampling points.
    There is only 3.43M pixels of information in any 10.3MP sensor that samples
    33/33/33%.
    Prove? It's a fact, the extra green have zero value to color interpolation.
    They help a tiny bit with luminance information, but not much more than any
    1/3rd color. A 6MP Bayer has 1.5MP of color info, and 2MP of luminance
    info. A Foveon has 3.43MP of full color info, and 3.43MP of luminance info.
    But none of the Foveon pixel colors are guessed, all Bayer pixels colors are
    guessed.
    I have a 10D sample, you can't see any font on the penny at all, nothing, so
    I thought I'd wait for someone else to post one. It'll never happen.
    Non-RAW shooters have in-camera sharpening, no different. RAW conversion is
    not post processing, it happens when any camera pops out a prosumer quality
    JPEG.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 25, 2003
  10. George Preddy

    Bill M Guest

    No, I know it has 3 layers but you still only have a 3,43 spatial
    witness as I said...
    You are wrong about the Bayer, George...like I said before, give proof
    besides your say
    Bullshit...you claimed unprocessed.,..sharpening is processing...
     
    Bill M, Dec 26, 2003
  11. You are still misunderstanding what's going on, lets try it the other way...

    A 6M sensor Bayer only has 1.5M full color spatial samples, so which is
    better 3.43 or 1.5?

    Having 3 layers of 1/3rd spectrum sensors is no different, not in any sense,
    than digitally combining adjacent 1/3rd spectrum sensor data. Every "layer"
    is the top layer, optically, it is the first and only surface that photon
    hits. The 10.3MP Foveon is no different, not in any sense or in any optical
    way, than a 10.3MP Bayer--except the 2D offset induces heavy Bayer artifacts
    when color data from adjacent sensors has to be digitally combined to form
    full color pixels.
    All images are processed from RAW data.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 26, 2003
  12. George Preddy

    imbsysop Guest

    yep .. and yours are processed from raw cheese .. it shows, must be Danish
    after all with the blue stuff in it .. or it may also be Gorgonzola .. jeez
    ...
     
    imbsysop, Dec 26, 2003
  13. George Preddy

    Bill M Guest

    Seeing as a Bayer has no full color photosites, adding the R G B
    together as "full color spatial samples" is ridiculous....
    uhm, it sure is different...the light travels thru each layer, each
    layer absorbing different wavelengths...same light that started at the
    lens. You still end up with 3.43MP of spatial witness.
    but not sharpened....unless the user CHOOSES to...
     
    Bill M, Dec 26, 2003
  14. No response? You claim that in-camera JPEGs are not processed from RAW
    data, and then not so much as a "thank you" for being corrected?
    Attention all Bayer trolls.

    Attention all Bayer trolls.

    SD9 images are made of now blue cheese. Not yellow cheese. Not green
    cheese. The story is now blue cheese.

    Thank you.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 27, 2003
  15. George Preddy

    imbsysop Guest

    attention all .. idiot that can't read .. full ahead .. blowing hot/cold
    simultaniously ..

    quod erat demonstrandum .. you're just a severe pathological case .. do you
    show this sociopath pathology where you live too ?
     
    imbsysop, Dec 27, 2003
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