Sodium or Ammonium, Ilford's 5-10-5 Wash Stands.

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Dan Quinn, Oct 9, 2004.

  1. Dan Quinn

    Dan Quinn Guest

    There are two PDFs concerned with Ilford Rapid Fix; a March and
    an August 2002. One says 5-10-20 minutes and the other 5-10-5.
    All of their paper PDFs mention the 5-10-5 sequence.

    Interestingly the Ilfofix PDF also recommends the 5-10-5. Ilfofix,
    is Ilford's old fashioned slow Hypo. Where 1 will do for Rapid,
    3 minutes are needed for slow.

    The capacity of the two Ilford fixers, sodium and ammonium are the
    same. That is in accord with an observation made by Dr. Gudzinowicz.
    The two having the same capacity also agrees with my studies.

    Many shrug this off; Ilford recommends only their own brand of
    HCA. Ilford's post fix wash routines are a 60 minute wash or
    the 5 minute wash, 10 minute their brand of HCA, 5 minute

    Ilford did say that for longest print life no more than 10
    8x10s/liter. IIRC, the only way now to 40 8x10s is a two-bath.
    May be their brand HCA ain't all that good after all. Dan
    Dan Quinn, Oct 9, 2004
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  2. Dan Quinn

    Tom Phillips Guest

    So, what's your point? I know the short fix works...
    Kodak says the same (scare tactics) about KHCA. Frankly,
    I think Hypo Clear is Hypo Clear...
    Tom Phillips, Oct 9, 2004
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  3. Dan Quinn

    Dan Quinn Guest

    AND, it is because the Ilford Film strength ONE minute
    fix works that the 5, 10, 5 minute Archival Wash Sequence works.
    By contrast, often recommended is a two-bath fix for Archival
    results. Two-bath is an old and current standard for long fixer
    and print life.
    If Ilford had changed to a 5-10-20 wash sequence as well as
    dropping the 40 8x10s/liter to 10 8x10s/liter, then they would
    have dropped their archival sequence completely.
    From my reading the one minute single bath 5-10-5 routine is
    now good for only 10 8x10s/liter. The 5-10-5 routine can still be
    used and as I pointed out, it can be used with the slower
    sodium thiosulfate fix, Ilfofix.
    Personally I think HCAs can vary quite a bit. Edwal's 4 in 1
    is noteable. Dan
    Dan Quinn, Oct 10, 2004
  4. Dan Quinn

    Tom Phillips Guest

    I wouldn't think the sodium thio is useful for archival,
    since it's the rapid fix that makes the short fix viable
    as well as the dilution.

    I have always used a single bath one minute fix (rapid.)
    I never count the number prints. Instead I simply monitor the
    fixer efficaciousness.

    Sodium sulfite is the major active ingredient in all AFAIK.
    Tom Phillips, Oct 10, 2004
  5. Dan Quinn

    Dan Quinn Guest

    Well, S. Thio. is every bit as good for archival as A. Thio.
    But as you say it just does not fit ILFORD's quick fix for the
    shortest post fix wash routine. The WHOLE thing with Ilford and
    the one minute film strength rapid fix is the short 5, 10, 5
    minute wash sequence for archival results.
    I maybe should not say it but I consider Ilford's one minute
    fix, 5, 10, 5 post fix wash routine a procedural gimmick. It does
    work though. It's a quick fix for minimul fix uptake and a 20
    minute total wash that the quick fix makes possible.
    Monitoring I think is best. Do you use the iodide test?
    I don't know if Agfa markets a HCA but they do recommend
    sodium carbonate. IIRC Edwal's may not have any sulfite. Also
    ph and concentration can vary. Dan
    Dan Quinn, Oct 10, 2004
  6. Dan Quinn

    Tom Phillips Guest

    Well that's right. But rapid fix fixes faster and so
    allows for a shorter fix time. Not sure what you mean
    by a gimmick, unless you refer to Ilford's specific times
    which make no sense to me either. For example, it makes
    little sense to have a "5 minute" wash before HCA since
    the whole point of HCA is to aid in the washing. A simple
    1 minute rinse would do. But the overall goal, which is not
    a gimmick, is to achieve archival limits in as short a wash
    time as possible. Using rapid fix is more efficacious in
    that regard.
    Tom Phillips, Oct 11, 2004
  7. Dan Quinn

    Dan Quinn Guest

    I suppose that's it; a procedural gimmick, those specific
    times, 5, 10, 5 minutes; wash, hca, wash. A fix as short as
    will do a complete job is the usuall recommendation. Does
    any one actually follow that still current Ilford
    Archival sequence?
    Martin Reed in his article Mysteries of the Vortex has
    said this; "...the entire sequence is probably best done in
    I use fixer very dilute; A. Thio. 1:31 one-shot. It has no
    build up of halide or silver at start. As fixation ends the
    fixer nears exhaustion.
    One other related matter; "...the overall goal, to
    achieve archival limits in as short a wash time as possible".
    And I think "...using the least water." That from Mr. Reed.
    I think shortest this and shortest that tend to be labor
    intensive. I think it was Mr. Miniter who washed clean a
    print taken from a highly alkaline fix in ten minutes
    of CONSTANT agitation. Dan
    Dan Quinn, Oct 18, 2004
  8. On 17 Oct 2004 16:07:21 -0700, (Dan
    Quinn) wrote:

    .... I think it was Mr. Miniter who washed clean a

    oct1704 from Lloyd Erlick,

    Now all we need is a couple of boards, a twelve volt
    battery, and a Volkswagen windshield wiper motor...

    Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
    voice: 416-686-0326
    Lloyd Erlick-Usenet, Oct 18, 2004
  9. Dan Quinn

    Tom Phillips Guest

    I have never followed it since it was first proposed.
    My usual sequence is to fix for 1 minute at 1:3, rinse
    for 1 minute, then into the toner. After toning I HCA
    for 3-5 then wash for 40 (twice my clean time of 20
    minutes.) I suppose I could mix the toner with HCA, but
    as the tomer becomes contaminated with fix I've never
    done this.
    It is a function of the time in the fix that allows
    thiosulfate ions to bond to the paper. I wouldn't think
    the dilution is a factor to any great degree, since what
    fix is there will bond over the time, it would seem.

    But I thought you used alkaline fix...
    Tom Phillips, Oct 18, 2004
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