Sony tells DSLR shooters they're idiots

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Alfred Molon, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. Even faster and easier learning is possible with camera models which
    can give you a live view preview of what the taken shot will look like
    before you shoot it. With some that can even include shutter speed, so
    you can select the amount of motion blur you want, e.g. the smooth
    waterfall effect.

    Not only a much faster learning and selection speed, but avoids
    cluttering up your memory card with a lot of failed trials.

    (Models with an EVF can do this in the viewfinder as well as on the
    LCD, and can also review the taken shot, along with the usual
    histogram etc choices if wished, without taking the eye from the
    viewfinder.)
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 13, 2012
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  2. It seems many modern cameras when set to full image matric metering
    add some bias a bit towards a correct exposure of whatever you (or the
    camera) has chosen to focus on. Different models do it in different
    amounts and different ways. I usually use central spot focus because
    I'm used to it and I'm fanatic for sharpest focus, so I notice this
    kind of auto exposure shifting if the center of the image is unusually
    bright or dark.

    But I find much easier than shifting to manual simply locking the
    exposure where I like it so it stops shifting around. Same kind of
    thing as using central point focus. Point camera at chosen focus point
    and lock focus. Then point camera at chosen exposure area or adjust
    exposure with compensation dial and lock that. Faster (for me with my
    camera) than using manual, and gives me the rapid response and
    flexibility of reaction to the unexpected moment of all the auto
    features.
    Possibly because I never had such good film cameras as you, I've found
    that exposure automation has for years (and the last few cameras) been
    better than I got with film, and it keeps getting better as the
    cameras improve in dynamic range and exposure automation.
    O looked at the graduating exhibitions of all the local universities
    and colleges who did degree courses in photgraphy. I chose the one
    whose students produced the most impressive exhibits. I checked out
    the course material. I was disappointed to discover that in order to
    have their degree approved by professional photography bodies most of
    what they taught was film photography. The students told me that some
    of the lecturers didn't like this, and gave more time to digital than
    they were supposed to, sometimes in extra classes which you could
    volunteer for.

    I didn't mind the idea of paying for a photographic education, but I
    objected to having to spend most of my money paying for a film
    education I didn't want.

    Of course the Art side of photographic image making is relatively
    independent of specific photographic technologies. Unfortunately it
    also seems to be heavily dependent on having some of those rather rare
    creatures, excellent art teachers.
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 13, 2012
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  3. Why not simply hit the exposure lock button when it gets it right or
    you've adjusted the compensation to get it where you want it? Then
    you can move the viewpoint as much as you like without changing
    exposure.
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 13, 2012
  4. Alfred Molon

    Eric Stevens Guest

    My sister attended a university school of art and ended up marrying a
    graduate. I knew a number of their fellow students including, quite
    strangely, several who had gone through school with me. I concluded
    that they didn't teach art. What they did was teach their own
    particular school of art. Differences of opinion led to heated battles
    about what was art and what wasn't. It's amazing how many arguments
    amounted to nothing more than post facto defenses of 'what I like'. I
    can't see how the artistic side of photography can be any different.
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 13, 2012
  5. Alfred Molon

    Whisky-dave Guest

    Sorry I still don;t understand that.
    My father had a Cosina CS1 when looking through the viewfinder you had LEDsof red and green representing the exposure you moved either the aputure orshutter speed to get a green light for correct exposure it was called semi-automatic. IIRC. You could buy a servo which attahced to the camera which was a motor which turned the shutter speed dial to get the LED to go greenthis was automatic exposure.

    And when applying this to exposue.. if teh camera tell you the shutter speed and aperature why is it called manual ?
    I thought it was because the photgrapher knew better than the camera regarding the correct exposure that's why it called manual as the 'man' or women of course sets the exposure and not the camera. ;-0


    Morden technology allows for correct exposure without the man or women doing anything other than remberign to point the camera in the right directionand shooting hence P&S cameras.
     
    Whisky-dave, Dec 13, 2012

  6. The whole point of art is to convey a message. The viewer may or may
    not like the message. Some people may like it while others don't.
    There may be strong feelings involved. That's art.


    It isn't. Why should it be? Surely you don't seriously want
    photography to be only about content?
     
    Anthony Polson, Dec 13, 2012
  7. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    I'm a bit surprised by this question. It's as if you had never used a
    digital camera.
    The camera does not tell you the exposure. It's just that on the LCD you
    can see a preview of the image and you will see if it is over- or
    underexposed. Some cameras will also display a histogram. You can use
    all this to set the exposure.
    In fact in manual mode the user sets the exposure, i.e. chooses aperture
    and exposure time.
    Also DLSRs have an automatic mode.
     
    Alfred Molon, Dec 13, 2012
  8. Alfred Molon

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Different messages are given in different languages. The messages of
    some artists were totally incomprehensible to those who favoured the
    'messages' of others.
    I wouldn't like you to think that there is only the one school of
    artistic 'message' and that it can be taught to all those who are
    prepared to make the effort to learn. For example, you will find
    little communication between those who understand the 'message' of
    http://images.fineartamerica.com/im...eart-so-big--abstract-art-jaison-cianelli.jpg
    and those who prefer the 'message' of
    http://media.artfinder.com/works/r/vanda/7/5/7/78757_full_570x391.jpg
    Without specialist knowledge the followers of either school are going
    to have difficulty with the 'message' of
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hK299eGLEyA/UC3ZHLeuwVI/AAAAAAAAB1I/DBc98CFyQk0/s1600/boschcover.jpg

    The same applies with photographs and no one has a universal truth.
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 13, 2012
  9. Alfred Molon

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Because you have to manually apply the settings to the camera: in
    exactly the same way you would with a hand held meter.
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 13, 2012

  10. I think I made it clear at the outset that it was extremely difficult
    to teach camera owners about art, unless they had some artistic talent
    to begin with. The vast majority of camera owners have none. A week
    behind the counter of a minilab will confirm that.


    Except your universal truth, often repeated, which appears to be
    "content above all else", with absolutely no effort made to deliver
    any message of any kind. Your misplaced praise for the Milan
    Cathedral shot, which manages to be an atrocity in multiple ways,
    suggests a disregard for any message other than "incompetence".
     
    Anthony Polson, Dec 14, 2012
  11. Alfred Molon

    Eric Stevens Guest

    I am particularly responding to your statement "The whole point of art
    is to convey a message". I don't quite know what you mean by the word
    'message' in this context but many artists claim to delivering a
    message. However the 'message is not always equally comprehensible to
    others. My point was (and is) that what is and isn't an understandable
    message is very much in the eye of the beholder. That's why I cited
    the three different URLs below.

    Now you have reverted to talking about teaching "camera owners about
    art" and the need to "have some artistic talent to begin with". It
    might help if you could better define your terms. What do you mean by
    'message' and 'art'? What do you think I mean about 'content' that I
    think that it matters to the exclusion of all else?
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 14, 2012
  12. Lack of fingers. And I don't know if it even works right -- what
    happens if I change the exposure compensation while holding exposure
    lock? (And I'm using that finger, which is my thumb, to control the AF,
    it's not available for AEL.)
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Dec 14, 2012
  13. Alfred Molon

    Savageduck Guest

    Tongue.
    Perhaps nose.
     
    Savageduck, Dec 14, 2012
  14. Alfred Molon

    Whisky-dave Guest

    Whether it's digital or film is irrelivent to this question, an expouser based on shutuer speed, aperature and sensitivity to light, in fact the same goes for video too.
    Which for me tells me the camera is telling me what exposure it is setting.
    So that is semi-automatic.


    Yes exacty NOT the camera.


    And cars too, you do know the difernce nbtween automatical cars and manual cars regading gear shifting I do and I don't drive.
     
    Whisky-dave, Dec 14, 2012
  15. True, the D700 at least is somewhat moisture-sealed :).

    Nose might work out okay, I'm left-eyed so it's at least in the right
    neighborhood.
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Dec 14, 2012
  16. Alfred Molon

    Trevor Guest

    Because I don't find that any easier than using manual in many
    circumstances. I do use alternatives in cases where I do find them a
    benefit. That's what I love about modern pro camera's, the options are there
    to be used as you (and I) find appropriate for our own particular needs.
    Unlike the full manual film camera's I started with, I rarely find
    conditions that can't be easily catered for these days. Life is good,
    photography wise at least. :)

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 15, 2012
  17. Never thought to try that ... (fiddle fiddle) ... Wow! It works really
    cleverly! The exposure lock (I've set it to toggle) locks it at
    whatever the exposure was at that moment. Under the image in the
    viewfinder is a range of + & - exposure values with an arrow over the
    middle (0) in plan vanilla autoexposure mode. On activating exposure
    lock the arrow and scale is immediaely locked, and a seond arrow
    appears which tracks how much the actual exposure value has now
    deviated from the locked value.

    Exposure comepnsation still works, and adjusts the value of locked
    exposure setting appropriately. So I can lock exposure, still see
    where the real exposure level has moved to, and can indepedently
    adjust the locked value without unlocking it to auto. Very useful
    intelligent implenentation!

    Thanks for raising that question! I've only had this new camera for a
    few weeks. It takes me at least six months to discover most of the
    useful features of a new camera. Plus maybe another year to discover
    that a few of the silly features I never bothered to try are actually
    very useful in certain special circumstances.
    Again may depend on your camera, but in order not to use up any of my
    digits holding buttons down I have set my buttons to toggle. Means I
    can adjust lots of things without taking my eye off the
    viewfinder. And I've set my default autofocus to drop into manual
    focus once it's found focus, so I don't need to press anything to
    start fine tuning with manual focus if I want. In fact some of the
    latest lenses drop into manual focus as soon as you move the focus
    ring on the barrel anyway, but this works with any AF lens.
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 15, 2012
  18. No idea how it works on mine, since I never use AEL myself.
    I've avoided the toggle settings because it's nearly certain I'd have it
    backwards a lot of the time, thus ruining evyerything I shot.

    Plus I really benefit from controlling the AF in real-time. I set my
    camera to continuous AF, but controlled only by the back AF-ON button,
    NOT by the shutter release. So I can get continuous AF up until the
    instant I want to stop, by modulating my thumb on the button. My lenses
    will mostly let turning the focus ring overide the AF, but I wish I
    could turn that off, I consider it largely a bug. It means if I bump
    it, I could disturb the focus and means I have to be much more careful
    how I hold the lens.
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Dec 15, 2012
  19. That will cause you to learn to always use the preview mode.
    Much less learning causes that, yes.
    How terrible. Can't buy another or a larger card. Can't
    delete. Can't format. Can't learn from inspecting a series
    of e.g. exposure times.

    Yep, the ultimative crutch. You learn to depend on it.
    Soon you're addicted ...

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Dec 16, 2012
  20. Only the parts they need.

    I am deeply disappointed when people fling the manual of
    their new technical toy (of which kind they have no previous
    experience with, mostly) far away and then either fumble about,
    not knowing what they do, or have to ask questions that a
    simple reading of the introduction would have solved.


    But according to you, probably amateur should use a simple
    camera only having a shutter button. That would be foolproof
    simple and they could all spend the time on creative aspects.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Dec 16, 2012
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